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Post Info TOPIC: Who shot down Lancaster DV227
B Olson


Leading Aircraftsman

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Who shot down Lancaster DV227
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I was impressed to see the wealth of information related to the German night fighter wings available through the Internet, especially the recorded victories - unfortunately, I wasn't able to find a likely match with the account of my Great Uncle's Lancaster and his final mission (reference recent thread "50 Squadron, July 7/8 1944").

Does anyone know the German night fighter wing or possibly the pilot/aircraft claiming the kill for his plane? If not, is there any evidence of flak or a mid-air collision that could have brought the plane down instead? Secondly, is their evidence to suggest the plane reached its target before crashing? Again, the details are:

Aircraft; Lancaster DV227, RAF 50 Squadron
Date/Time: 02:05, July 8, 1944
Mission: St Leu d'Esserent, France (V1 flying bomb depot)
Crash site: Rederie (Oise) approx. 5 km NNE of Grandvilliers (Dargies, "le pont rouge") France

Any information or suggested strategies for researching this would be most appreciated.

Thanks, Brian

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Hi Brian and welcome to the forum.

I have sent an email to a good friend ( Dom ) a researcher and moderator from the
www.lancaster-archive.com/forum
who has details on Dr Theo Boiten fantastic books on the Luftewaffe.

Nachtjagd War Diaries - volumes 1 - September 1939 - March 1944
volume 2 - April 1944 - May 1945
....... by Theo E W Boiten,
" An Operational History of the German Night Fighter Force in the West "

If any information is available, you will probably find it here.

Will keep you advised on any detail that comes to hand.
Regards,

John
stirlingaircraftsoc.raf38group.org/

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MikeH


Air Vice Marshall

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Hi Brian /John

The following entries appear in Nachtjagd War Diaries Volume 2 - April 1944 - May 1945.


July 7/8 1944

Lt Siegfried Elsässer   Stab II./NJG2         Lancaster        00.59 
Bernay-Dreux area (B-AC) : 3.500m
poss. 50 Sqd Lanc DV227, 
61 Sqd Lanc ND867
83 Sqd Lanc  ND966
106 Sqd Lanc ME668


Ofw. Wilheim Glitz         Stab NJG2           Lancaster         01.10
BernayDreux area (UB-AC) : 3.800m
poss. 50 Sqd Lanc DV227, 
61 Sqd Lanc ND867
83 Sqd Lanc  ND966
106 Sqd Lanc ME668



Lt Siegfried Elsässer  Stab II./NJG2           Lancaster       01.12
Damville-Septeuil area  (AC-AD):  3.500m
poss 9 Sqd Lanc JA957
50 Sqd lanc DV227
61 Sqd Lanc ND867
83 Sqd Lanc ND966
106 Sqd Lanc ME668
or 467 Sqd Lanc LM338



Ofw Rudolf Winn         1/NJG2                   B17 or Lanc       01.45
S.W or W Paris : 3.000m
poss 9 Sqd Lanc JA 957
or 50 Sqd Lanc DV227




The last claim look nearest to the time given,
hope this helps,

Mike.
















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dawallace


Wing Commander

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There is also a pretty good match for this loss in Luftwaffe Nightfighter Combat Claims 1939-1945 by Foreman, Matthews & Parry,  only 27 km from the crash site.
Fw Gerhard Koch of I./JG301 claimed a 4 engine bomber at 2:50 near Senarpont which is only about 27 km NNW of Rederie, a distance that could easily been covered in a combat & crash.
I also believe DV227 was on the return trip when they were shot down. The 5 Mosquitoes that did the Oboe marking for the Pathfinders on that op took off at about 11:00 pm and landed between 2:00 & 2:20 am and would have dropped their target indicators for the main force to bomb on somewhere around 1:00 - 1:30 am. DV227 would almost certainly have already been to the target and headed for England when they were shot down.
Regards
Dave Wallace

-- Edited by dawallace on Wednesday 14th of October 2009 11:18:58 PM

-- Edited by dawallace on Wednesday 14th of October 2009 11:24:29 PM

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Hi Brian and everybody,

Further to Mike and Dave comments ............

These details have come from Dom ( The Skintman ) from the Lancaster-Archive Forum. In this case, there seems to be no conclusive evidence soley to DV227.

Dom has spent quite some time in sorting thru the details. Submissions have been refined to ..........



GetAttachment.aspx?tnail=2&messageId=6909daaf-b96f-11de-9d02-001e0bcce2e6&Aux=4|0|8CC1B9350D36110||

Regards,
John


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K for Kitty Crew

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Further to Dom's comments, he has advised that making contact with RAF Hendon to obtain a loss card. This process may take a month in time but may add some more details to those listed above.

Regards,
John

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Skintman


Aircraftsman 1st Class

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Hi Brian,

I would also cotantact AHB they may have some information as well again this may take a month for you to get a reply the address is:-
Head Of Air Historical Branch (RAF)
Royal Air Force
Northolt
West End Road
Ruislip
Middlessex
HA4 6NG

Dom

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dawallace


Wing Commander

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As a timeline reference, Lancasters from 467 Squadron were over this target and releasing their bombs from 1:15 to 1:21 am and were landing back a Waddington between 2:52  and 3:22 am.
Dave Wallace

-- Edited by dawallace on Thursday 15th of October 2009 07:51:29 AM

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B Olson


Leading Aircraftsman

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Wow!

I just returned from a business trip (Bangalore, India) and was surprised to see so many helpful replies upon my return. I will certainly follow through with the collective suggestions and report back if I uncover anything new.

John,

I wasn't sure how to open and/or download the three "submissions" from Dom included in your post.

Thanks,

Brian

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Skintman


Aircraftsman 1st Class

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Hi Brian
Click on the images to see full size, they are from Theo Boitens Nachjagd War Diary's two excellant books I highly recommend.

   

or go here the 3 are NJWD 1 , 2 & 3
https://s590.photobucket.com/albums/ss350/Skintman1/Magazine%20pics/

Dom

-- Edited by Skintman on Saturday 17th of October 2009 03:29:50 PM

-- Edited by Skintman on Saturday 17th of October 2009 03:30:52 PM

-- Edited by Skintman on Saturday 17th of October 2009 03:31:16 PM

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N Grantham


Aircraftsman 1st Class

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Hello Brian and all

I am also interested in this thread 'Who shot down....' as my Uncle William Edwin 'Ted' Grantham was the pilot of ND867 that came down in Moliens on the same raid.

I have been put in touch with Vincent and Sonia at the school there, who have done a marvellous project on these two plane losses.
Vincent sent me some pictures of your visit Brian.

Let me know if you'd like to make personal contact - you can send me a private message I believe

Best wishes
Neil Grantham

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