Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Bombercrew.com Forum -> Bombercrew.com Forum -> 15-16 march 1945
Post Info TOPIC: 15-16 march 1945
Monsieurp237


Corporal

Status: Offline
Posts: 10
Date:
15-16 march 1945
Permalink   

Hi guys,

 

My grand-father, and godfather, last name paiement or payment, flew a halifax on the night of the 15th of march 1945, from tholthorpe to hagen, on a plane borrowed by the 425 to the 420, serial number nr172, coded PT-Y.

They crashed, after flak or ennemy aircraft caused damage, right after the bombing. Records say they were over allied territory, but I doubt that, for 3 crewmen were taken POWs, including my grand-father. Also, the pilot, patry, who died in the crash because he refused to bail out, is burried (or is it just a commemoration?!?) at rheinsberg war cemetary.

 

My questions:

 

1- any info that might help me figure where he crashed? Luftwaffe claims, for instance?

2- any possible way to narrow these claims to a few possible?

3- any way to confirm it was in germany?

4- any way to figure what prison my gf was taken to?

5- any way to tell you I would be gratefull for any sort oh help?!?

 

:)

 

thanks!!!

 

 

 



__________________
MP
AW


Air Commodore

Status: Offline
Posts: 256
Date:
Permalink   

Hi,
I might have the "K" File (Loss Report) for this aircraft, but it's up in my attic. I'll have a look soon, and get back to you.
Alan.

__________________

AlanW
Anonymous

Date:
Permalink   

Wow!

i do not have a clue what a K file is, but it sounds interesting!

thank you!!!

 

 



__________________
AW


Air Commodore

Status: Offline
Posts: 256
Date:
Permalink   

It might be bad news, after a quick look. According to my notes, i should have 85 "K" reports in my attic, including the one for NR172,  among my other files, but i have only found 11, and the one needed is not among them. I really need to go through the piles of paper when i get enough time, possibly over the coming weekend. If i do eventually find it, i'll get back to you. Meanwhile, you could try the forum at rafcommands.com and ask if anyone there has a copy of it

"K" files, are Loss Reports for individual aircraft, and should give details on how/where lost.

Alan.



-- Edited by AW on Wednesday 5th of February 2014 09:50:42 AM

__________________

AlanW
Monsieurp237


Corporal

Status: Offline
Posts: 10
Date:
Permalink   

Oh, well...

Many thanks anyways!

I will follow your suggestion and wait for an eventual comeback!!!

Thank you again,

MP

__________________
MP
MikeH


Air Vice Marshall

Status: Offline
Posts: 309
Date:
Permalink   

Hi,

there is a just a possibilty that Halifax NR172 was claimed by Hptm. Gerhard Raht of Stab I./NJG2

Luftwaffe claims for 15-16 March 1945 (source:  Nachtjagd War Diaries vol 2, by Theo Boiten). 

 

4 mot        Time    21.09          poss 425  Sqn Halifax NR172, 431 Sqn Lanc  KB815, or 434 Sqn Lanc KB835 

4 mot        Time    21.14          poss 425  Sqn Halifax NR172, 431 Sqn Lanc  KB815, or 434 Sqn Lanc KB835

 

Regards,

Mike



__________________
Monsieurp237


Corporal

Status: Offline
Posts: 10
Date:
Permalink   

Wow!

Great info!!!

No clue as to where these "victories" occured?

Also, if there are 2 claims that correspond to 3 possible airplanes, there are 2 chances out of 3 that the plane was indeed taken down by Raht?!?

 

Thank you very much!!!

 

MP



__________________
MP
John W


Group Captain

Status: Offline
Posts: 177
Date:
Permalink   

Hi MP,

 

According to Chorley this aircraft NR172 was with 420 Sqn and had been borrowed from 425 Sqn, two members were killed the pilot P/O J V L A Patry RCAF and F/O A M Fournier RCAF who was the Navigator. P/O Patry rest in Rheinberg WAr Cemetery and F/O Fournier name is on the Runnymede Memorial Panel 280. Your connection is WO1 J A Palement RCAF who was the W/Op.

It is believed it was shot down over Allied lines and the remainder of the crew were safe. Perhaps a blue on blue?

 

REgards,

 

John.



__________________
Anonymous

Date:
Permalink   

This Hali  crashed on farm land near Kaiserswerther Strasse, Ratingen map co-ord (K52/F-3699), 10 kilometres north east of Dusseldorf at approximately 21:00 hours.

Hope this helps.



__________________
Monsieurp237


Corporal

Status: Offline
Posts: 10
Date:
Permalink   

Hi John!

 

I am quite sure it was the other way around. The crew is 425 Alouette. The plane is 420 Snowy Owl. Both based at Tholthorpe.

Patry and Fournier, KIA.

Paiement, Goupil, Panneton, POW.

Lanctot, Odell, EVADED.

 

What's blue on blue?

 

Thanks,

M



__________________
MP
Monsieurp237


Corporal

Status: Offline
Posts: 10
Date:
Permalink   

Anonymous wrote:

This Hali  crashed on farm land near Kaiserswerther Strasse, Ratingen map co-ord (K52/F-3699), 10 kilometres north east of Dusseldorf at approximately 21:00 hours.

Hope this helps.

you hope this helps?

this is like the conclusion to 9 years of on and off research!!!

thank you sooooo very much, mister anonymous...

please state your name so I can thank you again properly!!!

what's the source of this amazing info?

does that make Rökker a possible "responsible"?

what's k52/f-3699?!?

thank you again!!!!!!!

mathieu paiement

 



__________________
MP
John W


Group Captain

Status: Offline
Posts: 177
Date:
Permalink   

Hi Mathieu,

 

A blue on blue is when an aircraft is shot down by its own side.

Oliver Clutton-Brook has the remainder of the crew as POW's except Odell which he has no reference in either 'Footprints on the Sands of time' his book on Bomber Command pows or his book on Evaders.

 

Regards,

 

John.



__________________
Anonymous

Date:
Permalink   

Interesting.

Although, if the crash site IS Ratinger, it could correspond to one of the claims of Hauptmann Rökker, who reports victories on two 4-engines north of Düsseldorf!

 

Having many records I collected at the National Archives, here, in Canada, I can say for sur Odell did in fact evade, as well as Lanctôt.

 

A personnal discussion with Panneton also confirms he, Goupil and Paiement were POWs.

 

Pilot was killed in crash, and is burried in Rheinberg War Cemetery.

 

Fournier is the only one who's whereabouts are unknown, although I know he did bail out.

 

As for the POW records from these books you mention, do they contain more info as to what Stalag the POWs were taken?

 

That is sort of the last enigma concerning my grand-father, and I have a rough time figuring how to find an answer!!!

 

Thank you very much for your help!!!

 

Mathieu Paiement



__________________
Monsieurp237


Corporal

Status: Offline
Posts: 10
Date:
Permalink   

John W wrote:

Hi Mathieu,

 

A blue on blue is when an aircraft is shot down by its own side.

Oliver Clutton-Brook has the remainder of the crew as POW's except Odell which he has no reference in either 'Footprints on the Sands of time' his book on Bomber Command pows or his book on Evaders.

 

Regards,

 

John.

 

Interesting, John!

 

Although, if the crash site IS Ratingen, it could correspond to one of the claims of Hauptmann Rökker, who reports victories on two 4-engines north of Düsseldorf!

 

Having many records I collected at the National Archives, here, in Canada, I can say for sur Odell did in fact evade, as well as Lanctôt.

 

A personnal discussion with Panneton also confirms he, Goupil and Paiement were POWs.

 

Pilot was killed in crash, and is burried in Rheinberg War Cemetery.

 

Fournier is the only one who's whereabouts are unknown, although I know he did bail out.

 

As for the POW records from these books you mention, do they contain more info as to what Stalag the POWs were taken?

 

That is sort of the last enigma concerning my grand-father, and I have a rough time figuring how to find an answer!!!

 

Thank you very much for your help!!!

 

Mathieu Paiement



-- Edited by Monsieurp237 on Thursday 6th of February 2014 04:05:01 PM

__________________
MP
Anonymous

Date:
Permalink   

I have a photo of the Patry crew, but don't know, who's who.



__________________
John W


Group Captain

Status: Offline
Posts: 177
Date:
Permalink   

Hi Mathieu,

No it states that the camp they went to in not known, this is the case in many pows taken late in the war owing to the confussion going on in Germany at the time. You can request their files from the Canadian Archives in Ottawa, this may give you a clue.

 

Regards,

 

John.



__________________
Monsieurp237


Corporal

Status: Offline
Posts: 10
Date:
Permalink   

Anonymous wrote:

I have a photo of the Patry crew, but don't know, who's who.

 

Oh! Could be very interesting... could also be the picture I have at home, that I inherited from my GF!

 

Can you mail - or point to - it so I am sure?

 

Thank you very much!!!

 

M



__________________
MP
Monsieurp237


Corporal

Status: Offline
Posts: 10
Date:
Permalink   

John W wrote:

Hi Mathieu,

No it states that the camp they went to in not known, this is the case in many pows taken late in the war owing to the confussion going on in Germany at the time. You can request their files from the Canadian Archives in Ottawa, this may give you a clue.

 

Regards,

 

John.

 

Oh well...

I believe I tried the archives, a few years back. I have tons of paper. Some, like a huge sheet which states the details of service, do mention POW with codes that I cannot decipher. But not a single document that could qualify as a report of POW of sorts.

Thanks a bunch,

 

M

 

 

 



__________________
MP
John W


Group Captain

Status: Offline
Posts: 177
Date:
Permalink   

Hi Mathieu,

 

Could you send me a copy of the photo you have of the crew. You can send it to me at harleyDOT158ATbigpondDOTcom replace the DOT and AT with the usual.

 

Thanks,

 

John.



__________________
Monsieurp237


Corporal

Status: Offline
Posts: 10
Date:
Permalink   

John W wrote:

Hi Mathieu,

 

Could you send me a copy of the photo you have of the crew. You can send it to me at harleyDOT158ATbigpondDOTcom replace the DOT and AT with the usual.

 

Thanks,

 

John.

Will do tonight!

Cheers,

MP



__________________
MP
Monsieurp237


Corporal

Status: Offline
Posts: 10
Date:
Permalink   

Anonymous wrote:

This Hali  crashed on farm land near Kaiserswerther Strasse, Ratingen map co-ord (K52/F-3699), 10 kilometres north east of Dusseldorf at approximately 21:00 hours.

Hope this helps.

 Sir? i need your help...

 



__________________
MP
John W


Group Captain

Status: Offline
Posts: 177
Date:
Permalink   

Hi Mathieu,

I have not received the photo of the crew as yet, are you having problems sending it?

 

Regards,

 

John.



__________________
Anonymous

Date:
Permalink   

http://425alouette.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/pilot-officer-premier-a-gauche-rangee-arriere1.jpg

That's the picture i have.

I scanned it a long while ago for the former group 6 website.

Richard Koval did some photoshop to fill the missing corner.

Is that satisfying or do you want me to scan it again?

Cheers

m



__________________
John W


Group Captain

Status: Offline
Posts: 177
Date:
Permalink   

Hi Mathiru,

 

Could you send it as a jpeg 300DPI to my home email address?

 

Cheers,

 

John.



__________________
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.
Bombercrew.com Forum -> Bombercrew.com Forum -> 15-16 march 1945
Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us


Create your own FREE Forum
Report Abuse 		Powered by ActiveBoard