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Post Info TOPIC: Halifax LW648 Bomb symbol?
MikeH


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Halifax LW648 Bomb symbol?
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Hi,

can anyone help identify the symbol that appears on the nose of Halifax LW648 'The Black Prince' so named in honour of it's Nigerian wireless operator.

 

The symbol I am interested in appears above the fifth bomb on the photo below?

 

I don't think it's an ice cream cone for an op on Italy. The key signifies the aircraft's 21st op, the bombed capped with a D is for D-Day coastal battery bombing.

 

Regards,

Mike

 



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PeteT


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Mike

I am guessing Marcel has been in touch with you.

I suggested that he obtained a copy of the squadron ORB so that we can establish when that operation was (thereby providing a possible clue to the lettering)

Regards

Pete



-- Edited by PeteT on Friday 21st of August 2015 03:54:48 AM

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- CA Butler and the loss of Lancaster ME334

- Aircrew Training WWII (Basic / Trade / Operational)

- No. 35 Squadron [From Thetford to Scampton]

 

[Always looking for COPIES of original documents / photographs etc relating to these subjects]
MikeH


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Hi Pete,

Marcel has been in touch. I managed to find him all 66 ops carried out by LW648.  The fifth op looks to be Frankfurt.

 

Regards,

Mike

 

 

 

 



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Adoubleyoo


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If the information on the tally for D-Day is correct, then the symbol in question, denotes flak damage on the night of 22/23 March over Frankfurt.

Alan



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MikeH


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Much appreciated Alan,

 

Mike



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Porthios


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Hi together,

thanks for all your replies. That has been teamwork. What kind of symbol is it? I cannot identify what it actually shows? Are these letters?

@ Alan: Thanks. Why does the conclusion of damage depend on the correct identifying of the d-day symbol? (I just want to learn ...).

Greetings to Pete who is always a good help.

Bye.

Marcel



-- Edited by Porthios on Friday 21st of August 2015 12:32:32 AM



-- Edited by Porthios on Friday 21st of August 2015 12:34:45 AM

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PeteT


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Marcel

Just following up on one other point, were you able to confirm that the dark bombs represented night raids and the light ones, day raids?

Regards

Pete

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Researching:

- CA Butler and the loss of Lancaster ME334

- Aircrew Training WWII (Basic / Trade / Operational)

- No. 35 Squadron [From Thetford to Scampton]

 

[Always looking for COPIES of original documents / photographs etc relating to these subjects]
Adoubleyoo


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By counting back from 6th June through the operations record book, the date of the Frankfurt raid matches that of the symbol in question. 



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Porthios


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Hi,

thanks.

I am still working on the dark and light ones, Pete. I would check for the dark and light ones when I am sure that I have all in the correct order.

I wonder if I have all attacks.

According to the book 'To See The Dawn Breaking' by W R Chorley LW648 completed a total of 66 operations before it failed to return from Bochum 4.11.44. So was it 67? Or how is this meant? Here is what I have:

1944

  1. 6.3. Trappes
  2. 7.3. Le Mans
  3. 13.3. Le Mans
  4. 18.3. Frankfurt
  5. 22.3. Frankfurt symbol above bomb
  6. 24.3. Berlin
  7. 26.3. Essen
  8. 30.3. Nuernberg
  9. 9.4. Lille
  10. 18.4. Tergrier
  11. 20.4. Ottignies
  12. 22.4. Duesseldorf
  13. 24.4. Karlsruhe
  14. 30.4. Archeres
  15. 1./2.5. Malines
  16. 10./11.5. Lens
  17. 11./12.5. Trouville
  18. 12./13.5. Hasselt
  19. 19./20.5. Boulogne
  20. 22./23.5. Orleans
  21. 24./25.5. Aachen Key symbol - 21. operation
  22. 1./2.6. Cherbourg
  23. 2./3.6. Trappes
  24. 6.6. Montfluery D-Day  Mont Fleury, near Ver-sur-Mer, Coastal Gun Battery
  25. 6./7.6. St. Lo
  26. 7./8.6 Juvisy
  27. 10.6. Laval airfield
  28. 12./13.6. Amien
  29. 14./15.6. Douai
  30. 15./16.6. Fouillard
  31. 17.6. Donlager
  32. 22./23.6 Laon
  33. 24.6. Noyelle en Chausee
  34. 25.6. Montorguiel Montorgueil, near Pas de Calais, flying bomb launching site
  35. 28./29.6. Blainville
  36. 1.7. St. Martin L' Hortier
  37. 4.7. St. Martin
  38. 6.7. St. Martin L' Hortier 1.44 o'clock
  39. 6.7. Croix d'Alle 19.00 o'clock Croixdalle - V1 launch site
  40. 9.7. Chateuau Benapre (Where is that place?)
  41. 12.7. Thiverney
  42. 15./16.7. Nucourt
  43. 18.7. Manneville
  44. 18./19.7. Acquet
  45. 20./21.7. Bottrop
  46. 23./24.7. Kiel
  47. 25./26.7.44 Fort du Croc Foret du Croc, V1 site
  48. 28.7. Foret de Nieppe
  49. 30.7. Villers Bocage
  50. 2.8. Foret de Nieppe
  51. 3./4.8 Foret des Nieppe
  52. 5.8. Foret des Nieppe
  53. 9.8. Foret de Mormal
  54. 11.8. Wemar-Surcappel
  55. 15.8. Tirlemont 
  56. 17.8. Brest
  57. 18./19.8. Sterkrade
  58. 19.8. Le Havre
  59. 25./26.8. Pons Corff
  60. 27.8. Homberg near Moers
  61. 13.9. Gelsenkirchen
  62. 25.10. Essen (code -Q)
  63. 29.10. Walcheren
  64. 30.10. Cologne
  65. 31.l10. Cologne
  66. 4.11. Bochum +


Can anybody check this again? I really wonder if it is correct. In the ORB nothing of a hit is mentioned, but I do not know if that was ever written in the ORBs.

Thanks to all who help.

Marcel



-- Edited by Porthios on Friday 21st of August 2015 02:44:22 PM



-- Edited by Porthios on Friday 21st of August 2015 02:46:51 PM



-- Edited by Porthios on Friday 21st of August 2015 02:57:43 PM



-- Edited by Porthios on Friday 21st of August 2015 03:26:33 PM



-- Edited by Porthios on Friday 21st of August 2015 05:11:22 PM



-- Edited by Porthios on Saturday 22nd of August 2015 04:21:20 AM



-- Edited by Porthios on Saturday 22nd of August 2015 05:08:36 AM



-- Edited by Porthios on Saturday 22nd of August 2015 05:27:35 AM



-- Edited by Porthios on Saturday 22nd of August 2015 07:35:59 AM



-- Edited by Porthios on Saturday 22nd of August 2015 08:44:11 AM



-- Edited by Porthios on Saturday 22nd of August 2015 08:51:46 AM

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alieneyes


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Porthios wrote:
  1. 6.6. Montfluery D-Day  (Where is that place?) Mont Fleury, near Ver-sur-Mer
  2. 25.6. Montorguiel (Where is that place?) Montorgueil, near Pas de Calais
  3. 6.7. Croix d'Alle 19.00 o'clock (Where is that place?)
  4. 9.7. Chateuau Benqere (Where is that place?)
  5. 20./21.7. Battrop should read Bottrop
  6. 25./26.7.44 Fort du Croc (Where is that place?) Foret du Croc, V1 site
  7. 15.8. Tir le Mont (Where is that place?)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tienen
  8. 27.8. Homburg I think Hamburg is meant Nope, Homberg, near Moers

 



-- Edited by Porthios on Friday 21st of August 2015 02:44:22 PM



-- Edited by Porthios on Friday 21st of August 2015 02:46:51 PM



-- Edited by Porthios on Friday 21st of August 2015 02:57:43 PM



-- Edited by Porthios on Friday 21st of August 2015 03:26:33 PM

 



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Porthios


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Thanks alieneyes and Paul who also helped.

Does anyone know the target on 31.10.1944?

Marcel

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Adoubleyoo


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You appear to have a copy of the ORB, but you say that there is no mention of the flak hit, and wonder if my information is correct. Not all information is put next to the aircraft in the Details of Work sections of the ORB, and if you look at the Summary of Events pages for the Frankfurt operation on the 22nd March, you will see that it states that aircraft "A" P/O Watt, Captain, sustained flak damage to his flaps but managed to fly the aircraft home. The target for 31/10/44 was Cologne.



-- Edited by Adoubleyoo on Saturday 22nd of August 2015 12:06:54 AM



-- Edited by Adoubleyoo on Saturday 22nd of August 2015 12:38:30 AM

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MikeH


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Hi everyone,

just to throw the spanner in the works, after checking the caption for photo that appears in the book 'To See The Dawn Breaking' by W R Chorley.

It says " The mark above the fifth symbol indicates when LW648 was struck by an anti-aircraft shell on operations to Lille 9-10 April 1944"

I understand Lille was the 9th operation.

 

Regards,

Mike

 

 

 



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Adoubleyoo


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Hi Mike,

i've counted through LW648's ops since she first appears in the ORB, and the flak hit was definitely on 22nd March to Frankfurt. Unfortunately, even Mr Chorley has errors in his work.

Alan.

just noticed that after rejoining the group, i've been demoted from A/Cmdr down to a lowly Corporal....

ha ha



-- Edited by Adoubleyoo on Saturday 22nd of August 2015 12:57:47 AM



-- Edited by Adoubleyoo on Saturday 22nd of August 2015 12:59:45 AM

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Porthios


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Hi again,

thanks again.

@Adoubleyoo: I do not have the complete ORBs, only the entrys of the aircraft showing the crew and details of operation. I do not have the summary etc. Can you send me the section where the flak hit is mentioned? It is really a problem not to have the whole ORBs, but with the help of you all it seems to work, thanks.

Concerning the dark and light colors of the bomb I do not find a pattern. When looking at the time of take off and landing, it does not match, I think.

Did anybody find out which kind of mark it is above the aircraft, showing the flak hit?

Bye.

Marcel



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Porthios


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There seem to have been quite a lot of V1 sites as target: I have found this document about these sites. Maybe someone is interested ...

www.christianch.ch/history/V1_sites_rgd.pdf

Marcel

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Porthios


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I would like to know were this is: 9.7. Chateuau Benapre

Does anyone have the night raid report with the map of the route?

Thanks.

Marcel

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Porthios


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Here a map with most of the targets.

 

 



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Porthios


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sorry, one too much sent



-- Edited by Porthios on Saturday 22nd of August 2015 09:46:48 AM

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Porthios


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Hi,

can anybody send me the the entry which Adoubleyoo referred to:

You appear to have a copy of the ORB, but you say that there is no mention of the flak hit, and wonder if my information is correct. Not all information is put next to the aircraft in the Details of Work sections of the ORB, and if you look at the Summary of Events pages for the Frankfurt operation on the 22nd March, you will see that it states that aircraft "A" P/O Watt, Captain, sustained flak damage to his flaps but managed to fly the aircraft home. The target for 31/10/44 was Cologne.

I do not have the complete ORBs ...

Thanks.

Marcel

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