Inept air/ground crew - what punishment ?

Spiggy · Aircraftsman 1st Class

Inept air/ground crew - what punishment ?

Coffey · Squadron Leader

Groundcrew were members of the R.A.F. just like aircrew, and subject to the same discipline I am sure. This might involve court marshall or demotion, or transfer to another posting. The bond between the "erks" and their aircrew was often close - I would bet the knowledge their carelessness had cost the lives of 6 airmen would be far worse punishment than anything the air force could dish out. Before joining my Dad's crew, his mid-upper gunner , while flying with Coastal Command, had accidentally discharged his .303's on the ground, killing someone . He was court marshalled and reduced in rank, and served for a year as a ground crew. He then volunteered for Bomber Command as a gunner and served with distinction for two tours with my Dad's crew. I am sure the memory of his mistake bothered him for the rest of his life - I know he never spoke of it to his family.

Moose · Flight Lieutenant

My father was a Sgt. in the RCAF, with Bomber Command, he was in charge of the ground crew on Halifax and later Lancasters for over three years. From what he told me there were slackers and misfits that some how got through training. He had a few come his way, but he had the option of having that man transferred out, just a talk to the Flight Sergeant and he was out of Dad's crew.
As for the man and the fuel pump, it was up to the Sgt. in Charge to check everything his men did. After the trade signed off on a repair it was up to the Sgt. to check and sign off on it before the crew's Captain signed off. And a good Flight Engineer would also have been there to check the work as well.

And my dad also almost became a victim of someone discharging the guns. At one point some bright top brass type did not like the idea of too many early returns because of gun failures. So instead of having the crews test the guns once airborne this bright chap had the
gunners test the guns while at the dispersal area. .303s can travel a long way, some gunner in a distant dispersal pad started his test and the bullets bounced off something then clanged into the tar paper and metal dispersal hut that my father and some others had just vacated.

Spiggy · Aircraftsman 1st Class

You've confirmed my suspicions re punishment being applied ; it is just that I have never read about it ever being implemented.

It does seem, though, that it was very much a collective responsibility ; should not the punishment therefore be equally shared.

The story of the ricochet reminds me of what happened to my Uncle Basil in Brussels in 1944. Serving as a lieutenant in the Recce. Regiment his Staghound armoured car was electrocuted when it ran into a fallen power cable. In their haste to evacuate the burning vehicle one of the crew dropped his Sten onto the cobbled roadway. It discharged a full magazine all over the place causing the crew to drop back into the car. Bas, being a tad slower than the others when the webbing of his holster caught on stowage rack, took a 9 MM bullet through both cheeks losing most of his teeth in the process !

Moose · Flight Lieutenant

One thing, of most likely many things, that went through the minds of ground crew when an aircraft went missing without a trace was. Was it something I missed or did not do properly, could I have done something more. These aircraft that flew off into the night and were never heard from again; were the most heavily felt by the ground crews.

The ground crews extremely long hours in all kinds of weather out in the open. The hangers were for long overhauls or damage. Out on the dispersal pads they worked until the aircraft was ready no matter how long, for most it was a matter of pride for others it was the Sgt. driving them to it. If my father did not have an aircraft ready for an op. His Flight Sergeant would want to know WHY ! and so would the Squadron Engineering Office rand the Base Engineering Officer.

There are times of course when work is brought to a halt. My dad was with one of the LACs removing some spares that had just arrived at the pad when he heard a loud thud like a piece of pipe hitting the ground. That part he said was not what bothered him, it was all the yelling and men running past him in all directions. Thinking that the base was under attack the LAC and my dad jumped to the ground and ran to the nearest ditch. What had happened was a small bomb had been stuck in the racks without anyone knowing it was there, the erks (ground grew) opened the bomb doors and out it fell ! So work kind of stopped while the bomb was delt with.

www.419squadron.com/groundcrew.html from my 419 Squadron website. My Dad is the second from the left

Wow your Uncle was lucky a couple of inches higher and he would not have been around to tell the tale.

Spiggy · Aircraftsman 1st Class

I entirely understand the extreme pressures on ground crew, and for so little material reward.

Regarding dear old Uncle Bas, the entrance hole of the bullet was very small and healed easily. Not so the exit hole, I am afraid ; that was made not just by the bullet exiting but also most of his teeth following it ! I well remember a family photograph of my dad sitting on a Velocette motorbike with my mum sitting in the sidecar with me as a tiny baby being held up for display. Uncle Bas is on the bikes pillion and he is smoking about a dozen fags all plugged into the hole in his cheek. That picture was taken in 1948 four years after the shooting incident.
Plastic surgery finally sorted it in about 1950 and the scar eventually concealed by a luxuriant beard grown from skin taken from a third of his four cheeks !!!

Coffey · Squadron Leader

Great stories guys! Does anyone know of a good book or memoir by/about the groundcrew of Bomber Command? What an incredible job they did!

Moose · Flight Lieutenant

None that I have found so far. For my 419 Squadron website I am always looking contacts to any of the ground crew who served with by Dad. I think off the top of my head I have only connected with two who worked with him and one other who was in the squadron. Where as with the aircrew I have contacted and put in touch many families of crews with others in the crew.

The fly boys get a lot of the coverage, which is rightly deserved and I have no problem with that, and the ground crew's lives were basically a daily routine only interrupted by the odd humorous happening. And of course the tragedy of a crew not returning. I know in my fathers diary he never mentioned the number of crews who he knew that never returned.

Now after six years of researching the Moose Squadron and dedicated webpages to them, I know how many. But it wasn't just the crews who did not return but the ones where the aircraft and crew members were shot up. There was not any special group who came along and cleaned up the mess, it was the same ground crew who saw them off that evening then awoke early to wait for their return.

My Dad and some others he knew began to gather information and stories about all groups that made a base function, they all networked in the good old days of snail mail and meeting across the provinces. It was all put together and now can not be found. i have a lot of information now, but little of it is on the ground crew or WAAFs or clerical staff personnel . Still I have about 300 webpages on crew bios, individual bios and stories of the crews who never made it back.

alieneyes · Group Captain

Coffey wrote:
Great stories guys! Does anyone know of a good book or memoir by/about the groundcrew of Bomber Command? What an incredible job they did!

Can't recommend this highly enough:

"An Erk's Eye View of World War II" by Ted Mawdsley

In this entertaining book, Ted Mawdsley remembers his wartime days at RAF Elsham Wolds in Lincolnshire, home to the Lancaster bombers and personnel of 103 and 576 Squadrons of No 1 Group RAF Bomber Command.

Ted recaptures the ambience of life on a heavy bomber station during WWII as seen from the perspective of its non-flying personnel, whose work may not have been as dangerous or glamorous as that of the aircrews, but was no less vital to the war effort.

His informal yet informative account is both amusing and entertaining - as well as being a worthwhile historical record of the contribution made by the unsung heroes and heroines who re-armed, repaired and serviced the RAF's aircraft or attended to the myriad routine and administrative tasks of keeping an operational RAF Station `up and running'

Moose · Flight Lieutenant

see if I can find a copy

Coffey · Squadron Leader

Thanks Dave for the tip ... I will try to find a used copy of that book.

Moose, my Dad always made a notation of all the crew that were on board during flights.....there are a couple of entries that list a LAC as being along ( not ops, these were training flights...). Do you you think the LAC would be along to investigate a problem, or just along for the ride...? Were there any rules against ground crew tagging along for a short ride?

Thanks all, Clint.

Moose · Flight Lieutenant

Well there were always "Air Test" of the aircraft after repairs of certain types of maintenance. Anyone could go on board even WAAFs, As Sgt. In Charge my dad went up quite a few times both while overseas and while at Trenton and other training bases here in Canada.

And of course there was the situation with British beer being warm to Canadians, so some Air Tests just happened to carry beer up into the much cooler altitudes and shared with ground crew.

An LAC could be on board for a ride or to monitor a repair job. For my dad's squadron there were at least two accidents when the aircraft carrying LAC and USAAF personnel were on board and killed. In the case of the USAAF men they were hitching a ride to another base, and two WAAFs gave up their place to let them ride. It was a Wellington, serial X3556

www.419squadron.com/X3556.html