Lancaster KB-835 434 Sqn shot down on 15/16 March 1945 above Belgium

Date: Dec 26, 2006

Lancaster KB-835 434 Sqn shot down on 15/16 March 1945 above Belgium

Index434 · Squadron Leader

KB835

C/N #37136 code.. WL-J

Flown to England and issued to #434(B) Squadron in Dec.44; Went missing 16.3.45 on a raid to Hagen; shot down by Ju88 over Landen; Killed were (P)F/O (Jack.O.Stewart DFC ,)(N)F/O L.W.Armstrong,F/O J.D.Ball, WO J.A.Whitehead, Sgt W.G.White, Sgt T.C.Kossaty, only survivor P/O J.H.Ayotte became POW; 16.3.45

Hello Alexander, the above information is from lancastermuseum.ca

Will keep searching for you.

Pigeonbird · Air Commodore

Hello:

If you are looking for some information on #434 'Bluenose' Squadron, browze the following website. We joined 434 in November of 1943, but lost our Skipper before we could do an operation.

John

http://www.rcaf.com/squadrons/400series/434squadron.php

alexander · Wing Commander

Thanks for the information!! I'm doing an investigation about aircraft crashes around Landen, Belgium during WW2 and discovered that the lancaster KB-835 crashed not far away from my home. The crewmembers were buried in Hasselt but I think that their first burial place is different!

Is there an association of former 434 Sqn crewmembers?

Regards,

Alexander

alexander · Wing Commander

Thanks for the info but P/O Ayotte wasn't taken as a prisoner by the Germans but he was picked up by an US ambulance from Tongres and brought to Saint-Trond airbase (A-92) from where he contacted his squadron. Landen was liberated bu the US army appro. 10 days before.

Is there a possibility to find out if he still alive? 434 Sqn vet association or ....?

Greetings from Belgium

alexander · Wing Commander

Sorry, error!! Landen was liberated September 1944.

Greetings!!

matt · Air Vice Marshall

alexander wrote:

Is there a possibility to find out if he still alive? 434 Sqn vet association or ....?

Greetings from Belgium

Hi Alexander and welcome to the forum.

Yes there is a 434 association, at least there was as of a couple of years ago. In fact there was a branch in the city where I live, the association donated a book to our public library and I beleive therer was info on the association in the book. I will go there tomorrow and see what I can dfind for you.

Matt

Index434 · Squadron Leader

434 Squadron does not exist anymore and i am not aware of a 434 Squadron Association, sorry couldn't help more.

alexander · Wing Commander

Gents,

Happy New Year to all members!

What's the best way to find out some information about F/O Ayotte John Hector serial J45708 RCAF,sole survivor of this crash. He must be beween the age of 80-85 years old now if he's still alive!

Greetings from Landen, Belgium

Linda · Air Commodore

Do you know whereabouts in Canada John Ayotte originated from?

alexander · Wing Commander

Linda,

No, I don't know where he came from! Sorry! I suppose it will be very difficult to localize him or someone of his family! A pity, the sole survivor of this crash.

Regards,

Alexander

matt · Air Vice Marshall

alexander wrote:

Linda,

No, I don't know where he came from! Sorry! I suppose it will be very difficult to localize him or someone of his family! A pity, the sole survivor of this crash.

Regards,

Alexander

A search of 411.ca indicates that the majority of Ayottes live in the western provinces, Alberta, Saskatchewan and British Columbia. It comes back with about 120 in that area.

Date: Jan 5, 2007

The only one i can find is a John Hector Ayotte, his address is 5689 Rosemont,Montreal, but that was in 1996.

Still- If you Canadians have a phone book for that area, might be worth try!

Pigeonbird · Air Commodore

There are about 13 people in the Calgary phone directory whose surname is Ayotte, including 3 with the initial J. However, if one of these is the crewmember you are seeking, he should be a member of the Southern Alberta Branch of The Aircrew Association, which he isn't.

alexander · Wing Commander

Many thanks!

I'll write to that address and hope that someone can help me!

Alexander

alexander · Wing Commander

Matt and others friends,

Thanks for the details. I'll write to the 13 people who are listed in the Calgary Phone Directory. Can I find those peoples addresses on the internet?

I heard that service records of Canadian servicemen KIA can be copied, am I right?

Matt, I read that you know a local researcher who can go the the national archives and copy the file of service records of RCAF men KIA. I would like to find the details about the pilot:

STEWART, JACK ORMSBY,Flying Officer D F C, J/38861. 434 Sqdn. Royal Canadian Air Force. KIA 15th March 1945. Age 23. Son of Fred and Edrie M. Stewart, of Toronto, Ontario.

Are the names of those crewmembers written on a Canadian memorial?

Greetings from Belgium

matt · Air Vice Marshall

alexander wrote:

Matt and others friends,

Thanks for the details. I'll write to the 13 people who are listed in the Calgary Phone Directory. Can I find those peoples addresses on the internet?

I heard that service records of Canadian servicemen KIA can be copied, am I right?

Matt, I read that you know a local researcher who can go the the national archives and copy the file of service records of RCAF men KIA. I would like to find the details about the pilot:

STEWART, JACK ORMSBY,Flying Officer D F C, J/38861. 434 Sqdn. Royal Canadian Air Force. KIA 15th March 1945. Age 23. Son of Fred and Edrie M. Stewart, of Toronto, Ontario.

Are the names of those crewmembers written on a Canadian memorial?

Greetings from Belgium

Alexander, because the pilot was awarded a DFC he appears in the datatbase for RCAF airmen who were decorated, here is what is says about him. Is there more info you are looking for?

http://www.airforce.ca/wwii/ALPHA-ST.2.html

STEWART, F/O John Ormsby (J38861) - Distinguished Flying Cross - No.434 Squadron (deceased) - Award effective 18 May 1945 as per London Gazette of that date and AFRO 1085/45 dated 29 June 1945. Born 1922 in Toronto; home there; enlisted there 24 August 1942. Trained at No.3 ITS (graduated 14 June 1943), No.4 EFTS (graduated 6 August 1943) and No.13 SFTS (graduated 26 November 1943). Commissioned 1943. Incident described was on daylight attack on Essen, 11 March 1945. Killed in action 15/16 March 1945 in attack on Hagen. Award sent by registered mail to next of kin.

As captain of aircraft this officer has set a fine example of keenness and devotion to duty. On his first operational sortie in March 1945 he was detailed to attack Essen. Shortly after taking off one engine became unserviceable. Despite the loss of some height, Flying Officer Stewart continued to the target, executed a successful attack and afterwards flew safely to base. His determination was most commendable.

-- Edited by matt at 20:18, 2007-01-05

Pigeonbird · Air Commodore

Matt. has anybody ever referred to the book "The Shall Grow not Old"? This was created at Brandon, Manitoba, Air Museum and contains the names of A

Pigeonbird · Air Commodore

all Canadians (and others) serving with the R.C.A.F. during World War 11. It gives the circumstances of the fatality plus the names of the other crewmembers. It also lists the home and the parents of the deceased.

Index434 · Squadron Leader

Anonymous wrote:

The only one i can find is a John Hector Ayotte, his address is 5689 Rosemont,Montreal, but that was in 1996.

Not a common name and is likely the crewmember he is looking for.

This is very interesting indeed if it is him...

Lancaster KB-834/434 Squadron...shot down March 11/1945...one survivor (F/O Ben Marceau) taken POW...still living in Rosemont Montreal.

5 Nights Later...

Lancaster KB-835/434 Squadron...shot down March 16/1945...one survivor (P/O J.H. Ayotte) taken POW...if same crewman...lived in 1996 in Rosemont Montreal.

Index434 · Squadron Leader

matt wrote:

Yes there is a 434 association, at least there was as of a couple of years ago. In fact there was a branch in the city where I live, the association donated a book to our public library and I beleive therer was info on the association in the book. I will go there tomorrow and see what I can find for you.

Matt

Well done Matt...i have not been able to find anything over the years with regards to a 434 Squadron Association. Keep us posted.

matt · Air Vice Marshall

Index434 wrote:

Not a common name and is likely the crewmember he is looking for.

This is very interesting indeed if it is him...

Lancaster KB-834/434 Squadron...shot down March 11/1945...one survivor (F/O Ben Marceau) taken POW...still living in Rosemont Montreal.

5 Nights Later...

Lancaster KB-835/434 Squadron...shot down March 16/1945...one survivor (P/O J.H. Ayotte) taken POW...if same crewman...lived in 1996 in Rosemont Montreal.

Hmm, so he attended #3 ITS (Victoriaville, Quebec), No 4 EFTS Windsor Mills, Quebec and No13 SFTS St. Hubert, Quebec. It seems strange that he would do all of his training under No 3 Training Command in Quebec if he weren't from there.

matt · Air Vice Marshall

Pigeonbird wrote:

Matt. has anybody ever referred to the book "The Shall Grow not Old"? This was created at Brandon, Manitoba, Air Museum and contains the names of A

Good point John, I'm taking my 5 year old to the CWH museum tomorrow, i'll try to sneak a look at theirs.

Pigeonbird · Air Commodore

I did my I.T.S. at Victoriaville and most of the Airmen there were from Quebec, Ontario, or the Maritimes.

Linda · Air Commodore

Hi, Beacause i dont want to spoil my chances of promotion,i am the anonymous who posted John Ayottes address & Rick is right,it is near Ben Marceau!

I cant find a date of death but there again he might of moved again!Maybe there is someone on this forum who lives neaby or another good way is to write to the local paper that covers that area.

alexander · Wing Commander

Gents,

I'm curious about the results of your search!

The comments in the interrogation report ("Report on aircrew landing in allied occupied territory" 30 March 1945) of the interrogation officer about John Hector Ayotte say:

"He was taken to Saint-Trond where he had an American Officer telephone 64 base and then to the hospital at Tongres. While in the ambulance he was told that five bodies had been found and the next morning the sixth one was also found.

The chaplain at the airstrip who had seen the A/C on fire and the chute, stated that the A/C fell in 2 pieces, the tail assembly coming off and both parts crashing about 2 miles from Landen. The R/G was unable to visit the scene"

So 6 bodies were found....Why are then 5 men buried in Hasselt (Belgium) and 1 man mentioned as MIA on the Runnymede Memorial?????? Has the last one been buried as unkwown??

Strange isn't it. May be that John Hector Ayotte can tell us more about this.....if he still alive!!

Alexander from Belgium

matt · Air Vice Marshall

matt wrote:

Pigeonbird wrote:

Matt. has anybody ever referred to the book "The Shall Grow not Old"? This was created at Brandon, Manitoba, Air Museum and contains the names of A

Good point John, I'm taking my 5 year old to the CWH museum tomorrow, i'll try to sneak a look at theirs.

Footnote to this:

I went to the museum today and had alook at the book but the name Ayotte was absent, the copy they have was from 1992 and I know there have been several revisions perhaps Ayotte was added later.

alexander · Wing Commander

Thanks Matt,

I'll very probably organize with 2 other friends an exhibition next April or May (I'm waiting for the details from our city hall!) about the air above my town and will add this story!! I'm still searching about info.

Greetings from Belgium,

Alexander

Linda · Air Commodore

Alexander- All i have for John Ormsby is on his death registration certificate.

John Ormsby Stewart.

Address-50 Snowdon Avenue,Toronto,Ontario

Male,Canadian,Scottish(racial origin),Nationality CanadianD.O.B. March 13th 1922.

Parents Frederick John Stewart & Edrie Maud(nee Ormsby)

In RCAF- 3 years.

Killed as result of air ops.

Nothing you don't know already!

Its really sad that on these death registration certificates, so many had English or Scottish roots (as well as Ukrainian etc).It must of been so sad for their parents, having emigrated to Canada for a new life, to be faced with a war and to lose their sons in it., before they had a chance to enjoy life in a new country.

Index434 · Squadron Leader

Here's another interesting connection between the aircrew of KB-834 & KB-835.

KB-835 crewman F/O John Stewart lived at 50 Snowdon Ave.

KB-834 crewman F/LT George Rowe lived prior to enlistment at 81 Wanless Cre...they lived 5 side streets apart from one another in Toronto in the Yonge & Lawrence area.

Also my middle name is John Stewart.

Do we have a Psychic in the house?

alexander · Wing Commander

Many thanks,

I'll use this info for our exposition soon. Do you have a copy of his death registration certificat?

Greetings from Belgium

alex260966@yahoo.com

alexander · Wing Commander

Index434 wrote:

Here's another interesting connection between the aircrew of KB-834 & KB-835.

KB-835 crewman F/O John Stewart lived at 50 Snowdon Ave.

KB-834 crewman F/LT George Rowe lived prior to enlistment at 81 Wanless Cre...they lived 5 side streets apart from one another in Toronto in the Yonge & Lawrence area.

Also my middle name is John Stewart.

Do we have a Psychic in the house?

Do you think they knew each other?

Greetings from Belgium

mr goon · Squadron Leader

this has been a very interesting thread to follow.. I hope there is more to come !!

Index434 · Squadron Leader

alexander wrote:

Do you think they knew each other?

Hi Alexander, no way to know for sure right now but it is very possible...families same area of residence...same 434 Squadron.

Linda · Air Commodore

Alexander-Will scan and e mail his Death Certificate.

I could do with a bit of pyschic intervention in some of my research at the moment!

I have had 3 replies from "Ayottes" (going through geneology sites) but so far not the right one.

Linda · Air Commodore

Alexander- If he is the same John Ayotte in Rosemont, the Royal Canadian Legion there might have heard of him

Royal Canadian Legion,

4835-7th Ave.,

Rosemont,

Montreal.

Index434 · Squadron Leader

Further Information

"Serial Range KB700 - KB999 This aircraft was one of 300 Lancaster Mk.Xs ordered from Victory Aircraft of Canada and delivered from Sep43 to Mar45 for ferrying to the UK. Up to KB774 were initially fitted with Merlin 38 engines and all subsequent models with Merlin 224 engines. KB835 was delivered to 431 Sqdn Dec44, joining 434 Sqdn 10Mar45. Took part in the following Key Operations: With No.431 Sqdn; Merseburg 14/15Mar45; Dortmund 20/21Feb45; Essen 11Mar45-Daylight. With No.434 Sqdn as WL-J; Hagen 15/16Mar45-Lost. Airborne 1631 15Mar45 from Croft. Shot down by a Ju88 night-fighter and crashed just to the S of Landen (Brabant_ a large village some 12 km SE of Tienen. Five of those killed were taken for burial in the neighbouring Province of Limburg, at Hasselt (Kruisveld) Communal Cemetery. WO2 White is commemorated on Panel 281 of the Runnymede Memorial. F/O Ayotte is reported to have parachuted near Liege, some distance from the crash site. F/O J.O.Stewart DFC RCAF KIA Sgt T.c.Kossatz RCAF KIA F/O L.W.Armstrong RCAF KIA F/O J.D.Ball RCAF KIA WO2 J.A.whitehead RCAF KIA F/S W.G.White RCAF KIA F/O J.H.Ayotte RCAF "

Alexander, i was able to pull up this info for you from the new site Matt posted. I don't think it offers anything new though.

alexander · Wing Commander

Thanks,

The dates of the different missions as the info about the serialnrs are very interesting!! Like I said before...every info about this aircarft and crew are interesting for my research!!

Greetings from Belgium

Alexander

alexander · Wing Commander

Hello,

Does anyone has a picture of a Wellington of 434 Sqn that I can use for my exposition next April/May. I'll certainly mention the source!

Greetings from Belgium

Alexander

matt · Air Vice Marshall

alexander wrote:

Hello,
Does anyone has a picture of a Wellington of 434 Sqn that I can use for my exposition next April/May. I'll certainly mention the source!
Greetings from Belgium
Alexander

Alexander,

434 Squadron never flew the Wellington, they started on Halifax V's. If you are looking for pics of a 434 Halifax there are some on the main site.

http://www.bombercrew.com/434/434gallery.htm

Are you looking for a wellington from another squadron perhaps?

alexander · Wing Commander

Sorry,

I meant a picture of a Lancaster of 434 sqn!! I think you have one of the KB-834, isn't it?

Greetings from Belgium
Alexander

matt · Air Vice Marshall

alexander wrote:
Sorry, I meant a picture of a Lancaster of 434 sqn!! I think you have one of the KB-834, isn't it? Greetings from Belgium Alexander

Yes KB834 is WL-Y in this photo.

http://www.bombercrew.com/434/lancKB834.htm

Its possible your KB835 is the last aircraft in the line as the squadron code is hard to make out.

I believe that I may have some other 434 Lanc images at home, I am not sure if they are overseas though but I will check.

alexander · Wing Commander

Hello,

We have an exposition in Landen, Belgium for the moment about the airwar above our little town and many peolple helped me....I would like to thank them for their help in my research about the KB-835. I've found today a witness of the crash of the Lancaster KB-835 and also the exact crashlocation!!!! And the witness told me there's still a part of the aircraft under the ground of the field!!!! True or not...but interesting to investigate!!!!!
Greetings to Belgium

Alexander

Linda · Air Commodore

Well done Alexander, that is really interesting news and keep us all posted!

dawallace · Wing Commander

From "They Shall Grow Not Old"
STEWART, JOHN ORMSBY F/O(P) J38861 D.F.C. From Toronto, Ontario. Killed In Action Mar.15/45 age 23. #434 Bluenose Squadron (In Excelsis Vincimus). Target - Hagen, Germany. Lancaster aircraft # KB 835 was on fire when it crashed and exploded one mile south of Landen, Belgium. F/O.s L.W. Armstrong, J.D. Ball, P/O.s J.A. Whitehead, W.G. White, and T.C. Kossatz were also killed. One Canadian, F/O. Ayotte, was slightly injured. Flying Officer Pilot Stewart is buried in the Kruisveld Communal Cemetery, Hasselt, Limbourg, Belgium.

Dave Wallace

matt · Air Vice Marshall

alexander wrote:

Hello,

We have an exposition in Landen, Belgium for the moment about the airwar above our little town and many peolple helped me....I would like to thank them for their help in my research about the KB-835. I've found today a witness of the crash of the Lancaster KB-835 and also the exact crashlocation!!!! And the witness told me there's still a part of the aircraft under the ground of the field!!!! True or not...but interesting to investigate!!!!!
Greetings to Belgium

Alexander

Alexander, please continue tokeep us informed on these events, if you have any photos or stories fromt eh exposition please send them my way.

matt

alexander · Wing Commander

Hello,
I would like to know if the Lancaster KB-835 had a nickname like some other Lancasters of 434 Sqn (Mugs Mulligan, The comet, yehudi...etc)???
Can somebody help me with this?

Greetings from Belgium

Alexander

Erich · Corporal

The bomber in question was shot down by a LW Ju 88G-6 either in NJG 2 or NJG 5. NJG 6 and 101 were intercepting heavy bombers in the south in the region of Nürnberg

Erich ~

alexander · Wing Commander

Erich,

Thansk for your answer. I've the next information for the crew of the Ju 88 who shot the KB-835:
Hptm Gerhard Raht (Kommandeur I/NJG2 at that time)
Fw Anton Heinemann
Uffz Werner Hessel
I'm not sure if the name of Werner Hessel is the correct one. Gerhard Raht died in 1977 and I think that Anton Heinemann is still alive today.
Regards,

Alexander

Erich · Corporal

possibly it may have been Rökker and his crew or ?

there are quite a few claims for this evening in question .............

Hauptman Raht
Heinemann whom I have interviewed, Unteroffizier Rohlfs-Zoll and Unteroffizier Hesse flew on this mission with their Ju 88G-6 coded 4R+AB of I./NJG 2, the crew reported 5 claims this night from 20.40uhr to 21.20uhr.

E