W R Chorleys RAF Bomber Command Losses - Info offer

Date: May 28, 2008

W R Chorleys RAF Bomber Command Losses - Info offer

Pigeonbird · Air Commodore

Hello John:

From another one of the same name. If you have perused through your volumes, would you have the data from an evasion that started the night of April 22, 1944 over the city of Laon, France. I was the Bomb-Aimer and the Pilot was Lt. Chuck Thomas, of the U.S.A.A.F. (but who stayed in the R.C.A.F.).

We were shot down by a Me 110 flown by Sgt. Heinz Philipwicz of the Luftwaffe. My evasion lasted almost 5 months until Sept. 1st when the U.S. Army moved in. Those wonderful Resistance people put an extra 25 pounds onto my frame that I have never been able to shed.

Chorley, I assume, has the definitive set of books on Bomber Command, but, at this stage of my life, I am more interested in divesting myself of books rather than buying. Most of mine are going to our new Military Museums in Calgary, who are installing a new Military Library along with a new Air Force museum. They might like a set of Chorney if they knew the cost.

I don't suppose there is any interest in a collection of stamps, most of them Military Aircraft from World War 11, but also other Campaigns including the Commemorative set of First Day covers from the 75th Anniversary of Gallipolli (I was in Sydney when they were issued).

I understand that you live at the Gold Coast in Australia. Is there any chance that you may know a few R.A.A.F. Veterans from your region? They are Robert Chester-Master, D.J. Barnett, and Lionel Rackley. Their Bailout stories are part of my book "Bless You, Brother Irvin". It's the history of the Caterpillar Club, with so 80 stories from around the World, including mine.

If you are interested in Canadian Airmen who died during World War 11, there is the volume "They Shall Grow Not Old" which contains 18,000 names and circumstances. It was produced at the Brandon, Manitoba, Commonwealth Air Training Plan Museum.

Best wishes from north of the equator.

John Neal

Date: May 29, 2008

Hi John,

Many thanks for your reply. As mentioned, I've only just received these books and I'm still coming to grips with it all, however, in Volume 5, 1944 book states all names / data of .........

Page 544     Escapers & Evaders 1944

This section is split into two parts, those who are listed with file / reference numbers. There are 8 aircrew from 419 Squadron listed for 1944

Section 2 - Listed 13 aircrew from 419 Squadron whom are listed with no documentation unearthed .............. John, you come under this list.

Page 184 states you aircrew / operation brief on the 22nd - 23rd April 1944.

419 Squadron, Halifax 11 HX189   VR-J     Operation - Laon
F/O     C A Thomas USAAF      evd
Sgt     J L Thompson                PoW
F/S     P R Lindsay    RCAF        evd
P/O     J A Neal         RCAF        evd
WO1   P J Murphy     RCAF        PoW
Sgt     W A Greene                   evd
Sgt     V A Knox      RCAF          +

T/O 20:36 hrs from Middleton St George to bomb railway yards. Crashed at
Couvron-et-Aumencourt (Aisne) 12 klm NNW of Laon. Sgt Knox is buried in the commual cemetery at Couvron-et-Aumemcourt.

Page 561 states PoWs, again split into the four sections, as listed above.
plus a third & fourth section.
Section 1 - listed detail ........... 11 aircrew in 1944 from 419 Sqn.
Section 2 - little detail ............  nil      "              "                "
Section 3 - No support detail ..   7      "              "                "
Section 4 - Reported on loss      3      "              "                "
                card but not on
                PoW war file. ( There are many reasons for this)

The seven of nine volumes costs me $127.oo AUD + postage from
Midland Counties Publications www.midlandcountiessuperstore.com England.

I notice you mentioned visiting Sydney, hope you enjoyed your stay. My family and I move up from there in 1990.

I unfortunitely do not know any veterans here, however, you mentioned the name 'Rackley' that rings a bell, was he a rear gunner, shortish type of man?
I did read about such a man in one of the books I have, can't remember which one though.

I think it would be fair to say that your book on the 'Caterpillar Club' aircrew would be a fantastic read, will put it on my 'to get' list.

It's been a pleasure to chat details with you John. If I find more data, I will post it.

Regards,
John

matt · Air Vice Marshall

Thanks for the offer John, it is greatly appreciated.

Pigeonbird · Air Commodore

Thanks for your early reply, John. The same year you moved up to the Gold Coast from Sydney, I arrived in Sydney, along with about 186 other Canadian Veterans. We were all on our way to Perth to attend the 50th Anniversary of E.A.T.S.I had already been through N.Z., then, after Australia, Singapore, Bahrain, West Germany, France, and England, for my trip around the World. The experience of my life, and I'm still writing the story under the title "Flightplan For Perth".

Thank you also for the details on my crew. I landed near Couvron-Amencourt, but I didn't see the village. Instead I walked right across the Couvron-Laon Aerodrome without knowing it (at first), then a taking off Me 109 made me aware of where I was. I have been back to France several times and have done a few memorials at the site of Vic Knox's burial.

Regarding Rackley, he was a Pilot, with an Australian crew, who was forced to bailout over Britain after a lot of damage was done to their plane over Europe. The odd part of the story is that he hit a speeding train engine during his fall, was thrown off, but the parachute and harness stayed on the engine, which continued on it's way. Rackley was not badly injured. The funny part of the story occured when the train engine arrived at Waterloo Station in London with a parachute and harness draped over it.

I was at a little cookie shop in the Gold Coast in 1992, and they made great cookies; can't remember the name but it was that of a Woman. I'm not about to discuss all the Australian Bars I was in; that would take all day.

Best wishes

John

-- Edited by Pigeonbird at 14:07, 2008-05-30

Date: Aug 14, 2008

HELLO JOHN

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I HAVE USED THIS SITE, I AM TRYING TO PUT TOGETHER A BOOK WITH ANCESTRY.COM AS A PRESENT FOR MY MAM, ABOUT HER BROTHER JAMES ALEXANDER DURKIN WHO WAS KILLED ON THE 24TH/25TH APRIL 1944 WHEN HIS LANCASTER WAS SHOT DOWN. I WROTE TO THE RAF WHO DID`NT HAVE A LOT OF INFO, BUT THEY DID SAY HE WaS IN A W R CHORLEY BOOK.

CAN YOU HELP

MANY THANKS
N STOREY
neil.a.storey@sky.com

Date: Aug 15, 2008

Hi Neil,

Thanks for your reply.

Like all who contribute to this great site, we are only too happy to try and answer you your request.

These details are listed on Chorleys- Bomber Command Losses, 1944,
volume 5, page 190.

619 Squadron, Lancaster 1, ME723, PG-X, Operation 'Munchen'

Take off 20:55 hrs from Dunholme Lodge. Hit by flak and crashed 01:44 hrs some 3 klm south of the Speichersee at Aschhein, where all were first buried.

On March 24 1948, their bodies were taken to Durnbach War Cemetery. W/O Schofield wom an immediate DFM, gazetted 14th April 1944, for showing airmanship of the highest qualities during a raid on Stuttgart in that March.

His air bomber on that occasion, F/S G.E. Hexter RCAF, had been wounded but steadfastly refused to leave his post; he, too, was similar honoured.

The crew lists as follows ..........

W/O   D. Schofield   DFM    KIA.
F/S      A. Baker                   KIA.
F/S      R. Withinshaw           KIA.
F/S      E. Brunt                   KIA.
Sgt.     D.W. Golding            KIA.
Sgt.     J.A. Durkin             KIA.
P/O      E.N. Powell                KIA.

Another site also lists this aircraft being lost on its second key operation with a total of 34 hours on it.

I hope these details are of some help to you. Thank you for visiting this site.

regards,

John

Date: Aug 15, 2008

Footnote to the previous posting.

I know have all nine volumes from Chorleys. Only too happy to answer any request.

Regards,

John

Date: Aug 15, 2008

HELLO JOHN

MANY THANKS FOR YOUR QUICK REPLY, WHICH WILL BE OF GREAT HELP.

THANKS AGAIN
NEIL

Date: Nov 19, 2008

do you have anything on robert fitzgerald conroy 429 sqn?

Date: Nov 20, 2008

I may be able to help you if you could you please supply a approx date, ie 1944 etc.

The files are very large so, any further info would be appreciated.
John

Date: Jul 29, 2010

Check out Floyd Williston's book , "Through Footless Halls of Air: The Stories of a Few of the Many Who Failed to Return" pg, 108 (see bottom of page at: http://books.google.ca/books?id=FsWEjLvWK88C&pg=PA108&lpg=PA108&dq=%22Robert+Fitzgerald+Conroy%22&source=bl&ots=5H8jGwqXad&sig=v3ZiK1m4501HuA7lAjmC43jhxac&hl=en&ei=hI9RTMSjMML_lgf36JmjBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCEQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=%22Robert%20Fitzgerald%20Conroy%22&f=false ). Also, Veterans Affairs Canada virtual war memorial page for Conroy at: http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/virtualmem/Detail&casualty=2079101 . There is a photo at: http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/virtualmem/photos&casualty=2079101

Misterfriend · Aircraftsman 1st Class

Hello John
I was wondering if you could help me. I'm trying to get info on the the plane my Grandfather was killed in as I plan on making a model of it as a 75th birthday present for my Dad. The details I have on him so far are:
Dennis J Stevens
Flight Officer
10 Squadron
Death Date 7th Sept 1940
Was in a Whitley IV (i think)
Thanks in advance for your help
Segan

k4kittycrew · Squadron Leader

Hello Segan,

Here are some details from Chorleys 1940 volume, along with a colour scheme of a Whitley V ............. The final letter on the aircraft is not known at this point of time but someone maybe able to assist.
Cheers,
John
stirlingaircraftsoc.raf38group.org/

Misterfriend · Aircraftsman 1st Class

Wow John!
This is brilliant, thank you so much for your help with this. I'll post a picture of the model when it's all done.
thank you once again
Segan

ktone · Corporal

John,

Would you have any information on Flight Sergeant Richard G. Winchester. He was with the RCAF but flew with RAF Squadron 101 (156?) in 1944. His plane LM755 SR-O was shot down while participating in a raid on Dortmund on November 29-30, 1944. He was the only survivour and spent the remainder of the war as POW.

Thanks to the many helpful people on this site I do have a list of the crew.

Bob

k4kittycrew · Squadron Leader

Hi Bob,

these details come from RAF Campaign War Diaries ..........

29 November 1944

Dortmund: 294 Lancasters and 17 Mosquitos of Nos 1 and 8 Groups. 6 Lancasters lost. Bad weather caused the marking and resultant bombing to be scattered but fresh damage was caused in Dortmund.

30 Mosquitos of No 8 Group attempted to bomb a tar and benzol plant in the Meiderich district of Duisburg, using the Oboe-leader method for the first time on a German target, but 2 of the 3 formations of Mosquitos failed to link up with their Oboe leaders and bombed on timed runs from the docks south of Duisburg. Most of the bombs were believed to have fallen beyond the target. No Mosquitos lost.

1 Hudson flew a Resistance operation.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Chorleys 1944 volume list the crew but no further details except for ........ 12:08am take off from Ludford Magna. Those who died are buried in the Reichswald Forest War Cemetery.

AND ........ the aircraft was LM755, SR - N .......... not 'O' ( may or may not be a typo )

John

ktone · Corporal

Thanks for checking this John. I greatly appreciate it. You are correct it was LM755 SR-N. That ws my typo.

I came across a Russian site on the internet (google translated) or I should say a site which was written in Russian and it list the 6 planes which were lost as follows.

29/11/44 Dortmund LM755 NF967 PB199 PB459 PB465 PD38

Bob

alieneyes · Group Captain

Bob,

I am no longer on the Lancaster Archive Forum. Someone there was kind enough to forward me the message you left me there re the number of operations your late uncle flew while on 101 Squadron.

You can reach me at alieneyesATyahooDOTcom (replacing the obvious) and I would be happy to help you.

Regards,
Dave

k4kittycrew · Squadron Leader

Dave, I've written you a PM on your 'whiteboard'.
John

Date: Apr 22, 2013

I am looking for information on BD 212 which crashec on 16 October 1942 with total loss of life. I have the basics like it was assigned to 19 OTU Kinloss/Forres and was on a training mission. Did it fly from Kinloss or Forres? Was it a case for friendly fire etc... ralbee@vhb.com

Date: Apr 24, 2013

19 OTU Whitley BD212

Date: Apr 25, 2013

RE: W R Chorleys RAF Bomber Command Losses - Info offer

Date: Apr 26, 2013

I'm not 100 % certain but I believe "Lookie III" was the name given to this particular search light cooperation exercise. From what I can gather, a search light cooperation exercise was a joint training exercise between Home Defense and the Air Force (and perhaps other affiliated services) and involved the large searchlights surrounding urban/industrial built up areas. They would be activated and sweep the sky hoping to spotlight then cone (as additional beams locked on) any approaching Enemy Aircraft. In these exercises the role of E/A were played by "friendlies" - all & all a valuable drill unless things went wrong.

During these exercises it was sort of a battle practice against being detected by and coned by the searchlights for the aircrew. Often Fighter Affiliation exercises were incorporated in these or similar type exercises (Bulls Eyes, etc.) and it was the task of the bomber to avoid detection and evade. A pretty realistic opportunity to recreate the real thing when the "game would be played for keeps" on operations.

I have no references available to determine what unit may have been involved in the unfortunate encounter with a night fighter. Other than obviously it being a rarity and a mistake this is not the only loss which occurred in this or similar fashion. There are quite a few instances of collisions during fighter affiliation exercises and of erroneous shoot downs. My own Dad's crew lost an Air Gunner they loaned out to another crew one night for a F/A exercise. The Hurricane crashed into the Wimpey with the loss of all aboard. Dad's Skipper, Nav and WAG related to me how they once were assigned on an Air-to-Sea Gunnery exercise on a practice flight in an area 33 miles off the coast of Peterhead, Scotland. After the rear gunner opened up from his turret they were the startled recipients of return fire and a rash of searchlights from a convoy which was down below. Something had been miscommunicated that night and while they may have mistakenly shot up the convoy in the darkness they were almost blasted out of the sky by anti-aircraft fire. Their incident fortunately was not fatal but it was a greatly shaken crew that returned to their OTU base that night. Although they were spot on in their navigation somehow there had been some crossed wires between services and a failure to communicate.

My apologies for sticky keys - there was a misprint in my original reply post which should have read "Bachelor of Arts" degree.

Perhaps someone will be able to unearth and provide some more details for you & provide confirmation of my take on search light cooperation exercises and what they entailed. Interesting stuff all.

B.

Airfileseeker · Aircraftsman 1st Class

Bob

I checked the Ludford Magna ORB's for the 29/11/1944 and came across these entries cocerning R Winchester, I can let yoiu have copies of them for your files if you would like

Kind regards

Greg

R Winchester details.JPG R Winchester details 2.JPG

alieneyes · Group Captain

Greg, welcome aboard, mate. Same Greg from Wales?

http://100548.activeboard.com/t47841895/raf-squadron-lancaster-lm755-sr-n/

Regards,

Dave

Airfileseeker · Aircraftsman 1st Class

Dave
many thanks for the welcome. Afraid I'm not the Greg from Wales I am in North Lincolnshire. I wonder if it may have been better to post the info as a new thread as the originator (Bob)
may not see it this far down the list
regards from Lincolnshire
Greg

Date: Jun 2, 2013

J A NEAL RCAF - HX 189 VR J HALIFAX II - 419 RCAF SQUADRON

Date: Jun 2, 2013

RE: W R Chorleys RAF Bomber Command Losses - Info offer

k4kittycrew · Squadron Leader

QUOTE - J A NEAL RCAF - HX 189 VR J HALIFAX II - 419 RCAF SQUADRON
Reply Quote

Hello sir,

I'm a french gendarmerie officer (major). Excuse for my english.

I organized last week a remembrance ceremony about RAF 214 SQUADRON R9194 SHORT STIRLING crash. 3 men are buried in COUVRON et AUMENCOURT cemetery (Aisne/France)

I'm searching information about 419 RCAF SQUADRON HX 189 VR J HALIFAX II shot down in France 23th april 1944.

-KNOX Victor Alfred is buried in COUVRON et AUMENCOURT cemetery (France)

Are you J A NEAL, escaper of this aircraft and "lucky pigeon" canadian book writer?

If you are, I'd be very a credit to collect informations about your crash.

best regards

Hervé - END QUOTE

Hello Harve, J A Neal has been a valuable member of this forum for quite some time but to my knowledge, he has not responded for some time.
This said person is not I.

I spend most my time over at the Short Stirling / Bomber Command Forum but also, like others, try to assist here where I/ we can, here. stirlingaircraftsoc.raf38group.org/

Mt father flew with the 'K for Kitty crew ' with his crews logbook details as listed ........... http://sas.raf38group.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1439&hilit=k+for+kitty+crew

There are many members here, myself included who may be able to assist enquiries, as they come to hand.
Cheers,
John

Date: Sep 1, 2020

Hi

FAO Rob Albee

with ref to your research on BD212 19 OTU and your family relative Sgt Mackinnon.

im also now trying to locate information on my late uncle Ernest 'Tiger' Hatch , who was stationed at the same base (and who also died 10 days after) My uncle also died in a plane crash and it was serial No BD213.

Im also trying to research the Merlin X engine numbers that were fitted. ive got BD213 but would love to know BD212. They should be on the service revords etc

hope to catch up soon

jason