What is this Red Bar on Lancaster nose ?

Guy · Corporal

What is this Red Bar on Lancaster nose ?

Date: Sep 16, 2008

Hi Guy,

I've been speaking with an ex Lancaster crew member, Dennis Over who flew two tours and he suggested that the F may represent 'Formation Leader'.

Before the decision to turn to night flying, squadrons practice formation flying in which case the letter could have signified Formation Leader.

On the other hand, he suggested that if the letter was of smaller size, the red line may have represented certain modifications to the a/c and that the letter & line may indicate danger and or something other than standard fitted or not fitted.

Regards,

John

Date: Sep 16, 2008

Although I could be mistaken, I don't believe the bar underneath the individual aircraft letter in this photo is significant for anything more than emphasis.

It was not uncommon for individual aircraft (in particular the late war Lancasters) to feature their individual aircraft letter in this position on the nose - there are many examples and photos which show similar markings. As 195 Squadron was part of 3 Group and at the time of this photo (May '45) was based at RAF Wratting Common, it is likely the Squadron codes were A4 and the F signifies the individual aircraft letter. These codes were generally painted the standard almost dull dark red of the time.

That stated however, Nos. 1 & 5 Group did a fair bit of experimentation with brighter colourization of tail fins in various combinations (black, red, white, yellow and with bands, etc.) in order to make daylight identification easier for bombing formations and Flight Leaders as well as G-H equipped aircraft. Some featured yellow edged or outlined codes and some Groups went so far as to try different marking methods such as streamers, smoke cannisters and rockets, etc.

Some Lancs even had their wingtips painted and late war aircraft sported Type C upper wing roundels which had the white concentric circle making them more visible. There are some examples of aircraft featuring the coding presentation on the upper tail plane surfaces as well as on the normal fuselage location.

No. 3 Group apparently specialized in G-H bombing and marked it's G-H outfitted Lancs with two yellow bars on their fins to enable two others not so equipped to form up on the Leader.

Apparently the standard codes were not visible much beyond about a 500 yard range making the forming up of "vics" very difficult.

Don't know if this is necessarily the answer you're looking for but I hope it helps somewhat.

Date: Sep 17, 2008

Hello Guy,

A number of No.3 Group squadrons were three flights squadrons, totallying in some cases nearly 30 aircraft. Often there would be two aircraft with the same individual letter in different flights.

These would be distinguished by the letter being underlined denoting there were two F's in the squadron, at least that was the case on No.218 (Gold Coast) Squadron.

No.3 Group did adopt the G-H Leader method when bombing. G-H Leaders had two horizontal yellow bars painted on their fins ( although No.149 did use white for a period ) The formations were never as compact as their American counterparts but the accuracy of the G-H system often surpassed that of the Americans and was definitely superior then the British Mk.XIV bombsight then in use even when the target was visible.

Ken MacLean · Flight Sergeant

Regarding the code letters, anonymous post above has it right. This subject was discussed on the RAFCOMMANDS forum about two years ago and documentary evidence was provided to show that the bar-under code letters were used when the squadron owned more aircraft than the alphabet could accomodate.

Variations were a bar on top of the code letter or the letter followed by a number "1" or "2". An aircraft so coded would be referred to within the squadron as "F-Bar", although the ORB's did not always capture this distinction.

-- Edited by Ken MacLean at 23:59, 2008-09-17

smudgersmith · Squadron Leader

Gents,

Did not log in when I did the posts sorry for any confusion.

Must confess did not look, was however expecting some flak about the accuracy comment. !!

Smudger.

-- Edited by smudgersmith at 02:08, 2008-09-19

Guy · Corporal

Ken MacLean wrote:

Regarding the code letters, anonymous post above has it right. This subject was discussed on the RAFCOMMANDS forum about two years ago and documentary evidence was provided to show that the bar-under code letters were used when the squadron owned more aircraft than the alphabet could accomodate.

Thank you for that, from my grandfathers records I do believe that this was the third aircraft in the squadron which carried the F. NN740 is the one which my grandfather flew and given the fact that photo was taken on approximately a month after my grandfather left the squadron (his last op being Munich on the 19 April 1945) we believe that this is the aircraft he flew his final 7 operations in and wrote a book about (another post about that)

One thing I have spotted in the book (F for Fox) is a comment that she was maked out as a bombing formation leader which also mirrors the comment from K for Kitty and smudgersmith about the possible markings.

F for Fox also mentions that she had two yellow strips on each of her fins to signify the formation leader. Given the comment that these were horizontal are there any photo's which show how these were positioned on the fins/their width and spacing ? I am building a model with and trying to get the markings for Fox as close as possible to how she would have appeared.

-- Edited by Guy at 07:58, 2008-09-19

smudgersmith · Squadron Leader

Guy,

I have a number of photographs of 218 aircraft with the G-H Leader stripes, will forward when I get home from work.

Regards

Steve

Guy · Corporal

Hi Steve,

Thanks and I will look forward to receiving them.

Also I still need to reply to you about tracking this aircraft further through its life so I havent forgotten about that.

cheers

Guy

Date: Oct 6, 2008

Hi Guy
Consider that the bar is an indication that the Sqn had another a/c coded F. Towards the end of the war Bomber Sqns often had more than 24 a/c and duplication of I/D was inevitable. I don't think ,that as an individual letter, either I or O were used although both occured in the Sqn Codes. Some Sqns used the figure 2 in the way we write something "Squared" in Maths and the bar may have been an alternative. The idea of Formation Leader is possible but the Heavies rarely operated in Formation, they were normally in a stream even, I believe, in some of the Daylight ops in support of the Ground Forces around D-Day
Regards
Dick

Guy · Corporal

Anonymous wrote:

The idea of Formation Leader is possible but the Heavies rarely operated in Formation, they were normally in a stream even, I believe, in some of the Daylight ops in support of the Ground Forces around D-Day
Regards
Dick

From my Grandfathers log books he was GH Leader in the last 7 missions he flew in Fox plus having recorded that Fox was marked up as Formation leader with the twin yellow bands on the fins, so I guess the question could be either way.

Unfortunately he cannot recall this particular marking.

Cheers

Guy

smudgersmith · Squadron Leader

RAF Bomber Command or more specifically No.3 Group did initially experiment with formation flying. This was quickly discontinued in favour of a compact gaggle with a designated GH equipped aircraft flying as Leader. The introduction of the two horizontal bars denoted the aircraft was equipped with GH. This did not necessarily mean that the aircraft was automatically a GH Leader. I have briefing reports and other documents that clearly record GH equipped aircraft formatting on other GH equipped aircraft. Often inexperienced crews were given GH equipped aircraft due to operational demands and operated purely in the follower role. ! confused

Obviously this did not apply at night. !!

Regards from London.

Guy · Corporal

Well in this case I have my grandfathers log book which records when they were using GH tactics and when he was leading. Just a few extracts

Jan 13 Saarbrucken takeoff 11:30 target 15:28
.. today we were on G.H for the first time.

Feb 1 Munchen Gladbach takeoff 13:10 target 16:35
Leading on G.H for the second time. Our formation was very good all the way - but the base formation just didn't materialise and the stream seemed to be just one long gaggle

Feb 28 Dortmund takeoff 10:25 target 14:00
We were G.H leader and bombes sucessfully against little opposition, what flack there was was all too low

Mar10th Scholven-Buer takeoff 12:05 - target 15:40
G.H leader today, but we didn't have any followers when we went in, so we just tucked ourselves well inside the first base and bombed with them. There was an excellent concentration over the target, about 30-40 aiorcraft all bombing at the same time. First back again.

Mar 19th Gelsenkirchen takeoff 12:45 target 16:00 - G.H Leader Quote
Lead GH again...

Mar 21st Munster take off 09:45 target 13:10 - G.H Leader

Mar 25th Altenbogge
;Were were on G.H again carring a marker and leading....

I am scanning in his log book if that would be of any interest to your 3 Group records ?

-- Edited by Guy at 18:16, 2008-10-08

smudgersmith · Squadron Leader

Guy,

Would be interested in a copy of the Log Book, any 3 Group related material is always of great interest.

Kind regards

Steve