ors files?

thorthemighty · Corporal

ors files?

leslie · Squadron Leader

Hello Thor

I have the 101 Squadron Operational Record Books. Please let me know in detail exactly what you are looking for and I will do my very best to respond.

Leslie

thorthemighty · Corporal

Hi Leslie,

sorry about the delay to my reply. i will send you an e-mail with all the details!!

cheers,

Thor

PS.

Just to clarify part of my request for ors files. I am trying to get hold of the ors files regarding the loss of 101 Squadron Lancaster LM472 (my great uncle was the pilot).

It was apparently recorded as a "friendly fire" incident by the ors (which I believe is in the AIR 14/3460 file I mentioned in my post) and I wish to find out WHY they came to this conclusion, as the brother of one of the other crew lost has been researching and is in contact with various people who are also researching/have researched the loss of the a/c including germans and czechs and there is compelling evidence that suggests that it WASN'T a friendly fire incident and a good candidate for the German fighter pilot possibly/probably responsible has been identified. But the question still remains as to why the ors came to the conclusions it did. What corroborated or led to such a conclusion?

As I said before any assistance greatly appreciated!!

-- Edited by thorthemighty on Sunday 6th of June 2010 07:03:00 PM

-- Edited by thorthemighty on Sunday 6th of June 2010 07:03:50 PM

KevinW4 · Leading Aircraftsman

thortm

I've caught up with your story "elsewhere" so I hope I'm not treading on toes or stating the obvious or info you already have....

Firstly, you say you have details of the 2 RAAF crew. Is that both their Service File and any other file(s) the RAAF or AWM may have on them?

Secondly, are you aware that the RCAF also have more extensive files on their crew than the RAF and usually including in a separate file as much information about the crash as is possible. MREU report etc?

Thirdly, have you accessed the "debriefing" Report for John Knight after his release from PoW camp?

From the circumstances of its loss, it does seem highly likely that it was hit by a night fighter. You obviously also have some information that it might have been hit by defensive fire from another bomber. Such instances seem fairly rare, given the fairly short range of the 0.303 machine guns compared to night fighter cannon.Certainly, if the shooting came from below, into the fuselage and inner engines, then a night fighter is more likely. It's still guess work but hopefully educated!

101 specialised in trying to confuse the German defences, so it's possible that the night fighter was homing in on one of their wave bands to make the interception.

Had it been flak, then I would have expected other bombers to have noted it.

It seems an early takeoff and after almost 4 hours they were not at their target, suggesting that they were doing a bit of "weaving" to protect as much of the bomber stream as they could.

It would not be usual for them to contact base as broadcasts could pinpoint their position or that of the stream. Master Bombers would, just to confirm success or otherwise of a raid, but not the rest of the stream, although they would be listening for any update from base about weather, change of target or recall etc.

One other observation: LM472 was coded SR-V2. Usually they only carried 3 letters, 2 for the squadron ID and the other was the individual aircraft recognition letter. "o" and "I" weren't used, obviously, but that still leaves 24 letters for individual aircraft. Yet they already had a "V" so LM472 was given V2 to distinguish it from plain "V". That rarely happened unless the Squadron had more than its normal allocation (!!) or that it had been damaged and under repair, and a replacement "V" taken on strength. Then when the previous "V" had been repaired it was simpler to add a "2" than repaint another letter.

So, although it may have been his "crew" it may have been a newly repaired aircraft.

As regards nose art, regrettably, most RAF bombers didn't last too long for it to be worthwhile. Presentation aircraft, such as "MacRoberts Reply" or to mark a significant milestone such as 100 Operations, otherwise there was no need, after all who would see it at night? It's not like the USAAF who seemed to have too much time on their hands who painted gaudy nose and other parts.

If it is any consolation, the crew remain together in Row B Plots 1 to 7...

I can't answer your technical points which you clearly need to access, butI hope this is of some help.

thorthemighty · Corporal

Hi Kevin.

Thanks for the reply!! smile

I have accessed the casualty files for Collins and Hart, which contain Jack Knights report of the incident.

To the best of my knowledge we are waiting on the RCAF file. Armour's family made inquires towards the end of last year but I'm not sure when they will receive it. I could request it online but this could take just as long. On another forum I put up a post asking if anybody over in Canada could get/access the file for me (easy to do) but that has to date proved a dead end.

Regarding the call sign. Since making the post you have seen I have a complete list of the crews ops and almost complete list of a/c. You said that "I" and "O" were not used but it would appear that in 101 Sq. both "I" and "O" were in fact utilized...see here: http://www.bomber-command.info/101sc.htm

McGonigle Crew Ops and A/C:

15/16 September 1944 to Kiel (McGonigle - 2^nd dickie - LL771 SR-Y)

5/6 October 1944 to Saarbrucken (DV298 SR-I)

7 October 1944 to Emmerich (NG139 SR-W2)

9/10 October 1944 to Bochum (DV245 SR-S)

11 October 1944 to Fort Fredrik Hendrik, Netherlands (PB457 SR-V)

14 October 1944 to Duisburg (LM472 SR-T)

15/16 October 1944 to Wilhelmshaven (NF954 SR-W)

19/20 October 1944 to Stuttgart (LM472 SR-T)

25 October 1944 to Essen (DV245 SR-S)

28 October 1944 to Cologne (PB457 SR-V)

30/31 October 1944 to Cologne(DV407 SR-V2)

31/1 October-November 1944 to Cologne (DV407 SR-V2)

2/3 November 1944 to Dusseldorf (DV407 SR-V2)

6 November 1944 to Gelsenkirchen (NG128 SR-B)

11/12 November 1944 to Hoesch-Benzin (Dortmund) (DV407 SR-V2)

27/28 November 1944 to Neuss (DV407 SR-V2)

28/29 November 1944 to Neuss (DV407 SR-V2)

30/1 November-December 1944 to Duisburg (DV407 SR-V2)

5/6 December 1944 to Soest (NG131 SR-W)

6/7 December 1944 to Merseburg (Leuna) (DV407 SR-V2)

12/13 December 1944 to Essen (DV407 SR-V2)

15/16 December 1944 to Ludwigshafn (DV407 SR-V2)

17/18 December 1944 to Ulm (NG129 SR-Z)

21/22 December 1944 to Bonn (LM457 SR-V2)

24/25 December 1944 to Cologne/Nippes (LM161 SR-F)

7/8 January 1945 to Munich (McGonigle in a/c unknown based on the call sign which I know was SR-V2 probably one of DV407, LM457 and LM472, - possibly ME419 but this may not have been commissioned until after the loss of LM472 - I'm not sure - my instinct is that it was PROBABLY LM472)

14/15 January 1945 to Leuna (LM472 SR-V2)

16/17 January 1945 to Brüx (LM472 SR-V2 - attacked/shot down/exploded c.22:04-22:09)

As you can see their "regular" V2 was DV407 (which survived the war), they went up in LM457 once as V2...this a/c did use the call sign V also so your theory that they could have just painted on the 2 for convenience may hold true in this instance perhaps. When they flew in LM472 in October 44 it had the call sign T (the only other one it had in 101 was D).

NG139 was however the only a/c in 101 with the call sign W2, which the McGonigle crew used on one occasion. It is the only call sign that particular a/c used in 101 (See link above). Perhaps this was a replacement? But 101 was a "large" squadron so perhaps not...

I will actually be receiving a/c movement cards in the next few days so this may cast further light on these matters.

Back to the V2 call sign. DV407 was not the first V2. LM462 was the first V2 (the only call sign it used in 101). LM462 was shot down over France on 28th July 44 on a sortie to Stuttgart.

See here for detailed story:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/26/a4342826.shtml

any thoughts Kevin? smile

cheers,

Thor

-- Edited by thorthemighty on Wednesday 9th of June 2010 06:07:15 PM

-- Edited by thorthemighty on Wednesday 9th of June 2010 06:09:11 PM

-- Edited by thorthemighty on Wednesday 9th of June 2010 06:12:17 PM

AW · Air Commodore

Allison,

There is only one operation recorded for this crew whilst with 101sqdn, so the list of operations you have for him could be for ops carried out with another squadron. As for the Lancaster serial number, W.R.Chorley, in his 1945 volume of Bomber Command Losses, records two 101sqdn losses on 23rd March 45, LL755 and DV245, and he places Sgt Woodards in LL755. One of the sources he would have used is the squadron ORB (Operation Record Book) which gives all such details, and aircraft loss cards. The crew on board on the operation to Bremen on which they were lost were.....

F/O R.R. Little.

F/Sgt A.J. Clifton.

F/O J.G. Lee, RCAF.

F/O W.H. Brooks, RCAF.

Sgt H. Woodards.

Sgt T. Churchill.

Sgt P.S. Nelson.

According to Chorley, this aircraft crashed near Stottinghausen.

Would it be possible for you to list the other operations you have that he flew on.

-- Edited by AW on Sunday 5th of February 2012 12:46:17 AM

Date: Feb 5, 2012

I would be most greatfull if you have any information about a sgt HAROLD WOODARDS 946040, he was my great uncle, there is confusion as to what plane he was on when he was killed in action, it is recorded as being DV245 and there is also records of him being crew on LL755 I would be most greatfull if you could give me any information regarding him and any sorties, it says he has only flew one sortie, but my nana (his sister) got top secert papers and there was a list of sorties he had flown, maybe I am looking in the wrong places, so any guidance would be appreciated.

wayne · Flight Lieutenant

Hello Allison and Allan,

There has been discussion over the DV245/LL755 confusion.
F/O Little was flying DV245, not LL755.
Dave "Alieneyes" has records to this effect.
See his post (#6) here.
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=26033

AW · Air Commodore

Hi Wayne,

I contacted Dave just after posting my reply to Alison, in the hope that he could shed some light on where this crew came from before 101sqdn, just in case i have them in one of my ORB's, as Alison says that there is a list of sorties flown by this crew. Unfortunatley there is nothing recorded in the ORB as to if they were operational before 101. Hopefully, Alison might come back with the list.

Alan.

Date: Feb 28, 2012

Harold Woodards