106 Squadron - Information needed for ailing Grandmother

spenfound · Leading Aircraftsman

106 Squadron - Information needed for ailing Grandmother

Linda · Air Commodore

Lovely photo's.
He was part of the Phair crew that took off from Syerston,crashing at Dusseldorf where all the crew were buried on 18th January in the city's Nordfriedhof before later being re interred in Reichswald Forest War Cemetery.

What information were you looking for exactly?
R RCAF in crew and 2 RAF

spenfound · Leading Aircraftsman

Any information would be helpful. I am trying to figure out his personal military timeline (when he enlisted, where he was stationed, what he flew, etc.) I am also interested in the names of his crew members, I am assuming all perished in the crash. I am also interested in finding nyone who might have known him, more pictures of him and so on. I have very limited information from my grandmother as she was very young when Jimmy went off to war and many things have long been lost since his parents passed away many years ago.

When you said he was part of the 'Phair crew' what exactly did you mean?

Thanks so much for your response, I didn't know he was in Syerston but I had been piecing that together just researching the 106's whereabouts during the war.

Linda · Air Commodore

106 squadron
Lancaster I W4261 ZN-C
Op-Essen

F/S Maurice Phair RCAF aged 24
son of Mark & Bertha of Limestone,Maine,USA

F/S Leslie Cronk RAFVR aged 22
son of George& Lorna of Brockley,London

P/ODuncan Dewar RCAf aged 22
son of Donald & dora of Oyama,British Columbia

F/S Joseph Aleo RCAF

Sergeant George O'Connor RAFVR

F/S Russell C Zavitz RCAF aged 39
son of JC and Flora of Ilderton,Ontario

F/S James Quinn RCAF

Sadly they all perished in the crash.

You could try posting a request for any details on the RAF Commands message board/forum.

I don't know the address but you could try to obtain his service records.

I assume that he was born in Canada?

You could try the listed hometowns of the RCAF that are listed,war memorials etc as there might still be living relations,especially as some have unusual surnames.
I have had a look on some geneology sites.
If I find anything,however small,i shall let you know.

Date: Nov 27, 2010

To add to Linda's research ...

From "They Shall Grow Not Old",

QUINN, James Edward RCAF Warrant Officer 2nd Class (Air Gunner) R90077

from Sarnia, Ontario KIA Jan 13/43 age 20. #106 Squadron Lancaster W 4261 shot down over Dusseldorf during bombing operation of Essen. W/Os M.A. Phair, R.C. Zavitz, J. Aleo & P/O D.H. Dewar also KIA. 2 of the crew (not Canadian) MIA and presumed killed. W/O 2 Air Gunner Quinn was buried in the Dusseldorf Military Cemetery, exhumed and reinterred in the Reichswald Forest War Cemetery, Kleve, Germany.

PHAIR, Maurice Andrew RCAF WO2 (Pilot) R101179 from Rhinestone, Maine, USA (KIA age 24)

ZAVITZ, Russell C. RCAF WO2 (Air Gunner) R90314 from Ilderton, Ontario (KIA age 30)

ALEO, Joseph RCAF Warrant Officer 1st Class (Navigator Air Bomber) R66126 from Niagara Falls, Ont. (KIA age 21)

DEWAR, Duncan Hugh Alexander RCAF Pilot Officer (Navigator) J16386 from Oyama, British Columbia (KIA age 22)

Hope this helps some, too.

Date: Nov 27, 2010

Oh and by deduction that means the trades of Flt. Sgt. Cronk (RAFVR) and Sgt. O'Connor (RAFVR) were Wireless Operator and Flight Engineer but not necessarily in that order.

the one photo is the rear gunner position of a Fairey Battle and the yellow and black camoflauge pattern indicates it was taken at a BCATP School likely a Bombing and Gunnery school while under training in Canada. There were about a dozen of these schools spread across Canada. I may be able to help identify if you knew of any place names or if you have any other pictures that showed aircraft serial numbers or codes.

Hope that helps, too.

spenfound · Leading Aircraftsman

Unfortunately I have no more pictures but I believe my Grandmother had said Jimmy was sent out to Alberta for his training so I can only assume that would be in Lethbridge?

Thank you for responding, it is so exciting to finally find some information on him!

Date: Nov 29, 2010

there was only one B&G School in Alberta that being No. 8 at Lethbridge. I'm not certain that the gunnery training was done on Battles. My Dad attended there in '43 and I'm fairly certain he did his gunnery in the rear turret of Bolingbrokes and the yellow and black striped Battles were used as drogue target towers. However that doesn't mean that Battles weren't employed in that role.

Little by little you can piece together a fairly accurate history even without the info contained in the archived Service records that NOK may apply for from Ottawa.

spenfound · Leading Aircraftsman

Do you know which schools used battles? Maybe I can check with my grandmother again, though I'm not sure how much she can remember.

Bill Walker · Warrant Officer

No. 8 Bombing & Gunnery School began using Battles as gunnery trainers and target tugs at Lethbridge in the fall of 1941. The Bolingbrokes gradually replaced the Battles as gunnery trainers first, then as target tugs, starting in the spring of 1943.

Battles were also used at every other RCAF Bombing & Gunnery School, and at a couple of Service Flying Training Schools.

-- Edited by Bill Walker on Tuesday 30th of November 2010 12:49:08 PM

Date: Nov 30, 2010

That should clear that up then as Bill would know the answer to that far better than I. Dad attended No. 8 in March of '44 and as I recall told me he'd done his aerial gunnery training in the turrets on Bolys (an aircraft which made him terribly sick thanks to the av gas and exhaust fumes that funnelled down the fuselage). I never heard him complain about Ansons, Wimpeys, Hallies or Lancs but he didn't care for the Boly much at all.

I believe that he said Battles and Lysanders towed the drogues (long socks) that trailed behind and at which the gunner attempted marksmanship with coloured wax dipped bullets.

Spenfound, if you know of any other place names or bases it might be possible to take educated guesses at the OTU or Con Units your Great Uncle attended Overseas prior to Squadron posting. If I'm not incorrect, it appears he graduated as a Sgt. Air Gunner and was promoted to Warrant Officer 2nd class later on. Of some note in his portrait is his AG brevet minus the King's crown and RCAF lettering in the laurel. Perhaps this was the brevet issued prior to the inception of the RCAF design.

Nothing hinges on it but that small detail seemed a bit unusual given his uniform has the CANADA shoulder flash and eagle.

I had a relative who was a Navigator. In some pictures he wore the RCAF "N" wing (on his dress uniform) yet in others of him in battledress he wore the winged "O" of an Observer. Maybe it just depended on the issue ...

There are a host of resources in terms of more knowledgeable people than I who drop into this forum and may be able to shed more light for you regarding your Great Uncle.

Hope you have continued success in your quest for info.

spenfound · Leading Aircraftsman

Bill Walker wrote:

No. 8 Bombing & Gunnery School began using Battles as gunnery trainers and target tugs at Lethbridge in the fall of 1941. The Bolingbrokes gradually replaced the Battles as gunnery trainers first, then as target tugs, starting in the spring of 1943.

Battles were also used at every other RCAF Bombing & Gunnery School, and at a couple of Service Flying Training Schools.

-- Edited by Bill Walker on Tuesday 30th of November 2010 12:49:08 PM

I know he was gone from at least January '41 onward but I don't know if he signed up earlier. From what I can recall, he signed up when he shouldn't have, meaning he was only 17 - I believe you had to be 18 to sign up, correct? That places him signing up in 1939 prior to December (his birth month). Would he have started training right away? Then perhaps he wasn't in Lethbridge when he would have been training. What camps would have been open in '39 over here that would have used Faireys? How long were the men generally kept in training schools until they were actually sent over?

spenfound · Leading Aircraftsman

R. Fulford wrote:

That should clear that up then as Bill would know the answer to that far better than I. Dad attended No. 8 in March of '44 and as I recall told me he'd done his aerial gunnery training in the turrets on Bolys (an aircraft which made him terribly sick thanks to the av gas and exhaust fumes that funnelled down the fuselage). I never heard him complain about Ansons, Wimpeys, Hallies or Lancs but he didn't care for the Boly much at all.

I believe that he said Battles and Lysanders towed the drogues (long socks) that trailed behind and at which the gunner attempted marksmanship with coloured wax dipped bullets.

Spenfound, if you know of any other place names or bases it might be possible to take educated guesses at the OTU or Con Units your Great Uncle attended Overseas prior to Squadron posting. If I'm not incorrect, it appears he graduated as a Sgt. Air Gunner and was promoted to Warrant Officer 2nd class later on. Of some note in his portrait is his AG brevet minus the King's crown and RCAF lettering in the laurel. Perhaps this was the brevet issued prior to the inception of the RCAF design.

Nothing hinges on it but that small detail seemed a bit unusual given his uniform has the CANADA shoulder flash and eagle.

I had a relative who was a Navigator. In some pictures he wore the RCAF "N" wing (on his dress uniform) yet in others of him in battledress he wore the winged "O" of an Observer. Maybe it just depended on the issue ...

There are a host of resources in terms of more knowledgeable people than I who drop into this forum and may be able to shed more light for you regarding your Great Uncle.

Hope you have continued success in your quest for info.

Thank you for that bit of info about the brevet minus the RCAF and King's crown. I hadn't even noticed until I read what you had typed! That does seem a bit odd, doesn't it!

Everyone here has been so helpful and I already have so much more information than I did before to present to my Grandmother this Christmas. I am so grateful to you all!

Bill Walker · Warrant Officer

I think that most people underwent 6 to 8 weeks of initial training before being shipped to a flying school. In some cases, they had to wait a bit longer for openings at the schools, especially early in the war when the schools were being established. There are many stories of Initial Training graduates spending several weeks or even months on "guard duty" at some half built air base before being assigned to their next school. Also, early in the war people would often be sent home for up to a few months after signing up, again because the schools were still being set up. By the way, my father joined the Army in Ottawa in early 1940, just after his 17th birthday. I think he needed his parents permission to do this.

Early in the war the gunnery training in Canada was 4 weeks, but this was increased to 12 weeks by 1942. Some gunners had duel trades, and would also be trained as wireless operators or observers, with additional class room and flying time. At the end of their time in Canada trainees would be assigned to a Manning Depot in eastern Canada, awaiting room on a boat to the UK. This could be anywhere from a few days to a few weeks. So, signing up in December 1939 and shipping overseas in January 1941 is quite believable.

In early 1940 most RCAF Battles would have been in use as pilot trainers, or even with a few operational units. Their use at gunnery schools didn't really start until late 1940:

No. 1 B&GS at Picton, Ontario from August 1940
No. 2 B&GS at Mossbank, Sask. from October 1940
No. 4 B&GS at Fingal, Ontario from November 1940

AW · Air Commodore

Shaun,

Hope Matt don't mind this but-I am a moderator on the 50/61sqdn website forum, www.squadronforum.freeforums.org and was wondering if you could post the photos of the 61sqdn crew graves on the forum. If you want any details from the 61sqdn ORB, just ask.

Alan

-- Edited by AW on Monday 27th of February 2012 02:38:55 PM

-- Edited by AW on Tuesday 28th of February 2012 07:54:51 AM

shaunparkes · Aircraftsman 1st Class

The crew of Lancaster I W4261 ZN-C are buried next to the crew of Lancaster 1 W4192 QR-E of 61 Sqn RAF also from RAF Syerston and also lost 13 Jan 1943. The navigator of QR-E was Fg Off John Edward Northend, who would have been a first cousin of mine.

My brother has (today) photographed the graves of the crew of QR-E but because he wasn't 100% sure that the crews were buried adjacent to each other, he photo'ed all the graves from both crews just to be sure.

I therefore have pictures of the graves of ZN-C's crew as well if anybody would like copies.

On the whole "small world" front, my aunt and uncle emigrated to Ontario in the 1960s, and their daughter (my cousin) Emma still lives in Sarnia from whence came WO Quinn of ZN-C's crew!

From the headstones, the roles of the crew are correct other than FS Cronk who was also listed as a pilot rather than Air Engineer; Sgt O'Connor was indeed a WOP/AG.

shaunparkes · Aircraftsman 1st Class

HI Alan,

Happy to do so. Will do so now.

UnclePhair · Aircraftsman 1st Class

Im not certain of the date of this thread but Maurice Phair was my husbands great Uncle. We all hail from Limestone Maine a small potato farming community in Northern Maine that borders Canada. There is a border crossing station in the town. Maurice was an American who crossed into Canada to enlist during the period prior to the US being involved in the war. Family lore says he was working with the powers at be to enlist/transfer to being an American enlisted pilot since the US was more fully involved. Im sorry for your mothers loss. They were brave men and I am glad a few of us are actively documenting their existence. Thanks to all who participated in this thread. I learned much myself. Lynnie Phair