Surviving Grandfather?

Geoff McNelly · Leading Aircraftsman

Surviving Grandfather?

Dave_Richardson · Flight Sergeant

Hi Geoff

Searching is going to be a bit difficult without a name. Your grandfathers name might be on your dad's birth certificate. If you let me know what your dad's name was I'll see if I can pin down his birth. You can then get a copy of the birth certificate and if you're lucky your grandfathers name might be on it. If he served in the RCAf then there could be a record of him in the Canadian National Archives. Without a name you're a bit stumped I'm afraid.

Dave

leslie · Squadron Leader

Hi Geoff
If your grandfather was based in or near Lincolnshire in 1941 it could be he was with 101 Squadron. In 1941 it was very common for Canadians to fly for the RAF.
If you can give me any information whatsoever I may be able to find some clues in the Squadron Operational Record Books.
Leslie

Geoff McNelly · Leading Aircraftsman

Hi Dave,

Thank you so much for replying here, it would mean the world to me (and my Dad) if you could find something. Good idea, but it might be a long shot as I think he has tried that already, and either no name on the copy or maybe it has been doctored/spoilt/the copy left blank etc....possibly just entered as Frederich McNelly (step father) later.

Not sure if the file copy reads differently though (fingers crossed).

ANYWAY, his name is Timothy John McNelly, born 4th February 1942, i could ask hime where he was born if that's any help.

Many thanks

Geoff

Geoff McNelly · Leading Aircraftsman

Hi Leslie,

Thank you for your post, really encouraging!

I will double check with my Dad again re exactly where he may have lived etc. The only thing I really missed out on the original post was that he went on to fly numerous missions, but I do not know whether he was injured, lasted for the duration of the war etc or anything more...

Given that several letters and money was sent by my paternal grandfather to support my Grandmother after the war I would be guessing that maybe he was posted somewhere else in say 1941-43, or perhaps injured and forced to return to Canada - just a suspicion of mine but it did not sound as though he wanted to leave, he obviously knew about the baby and must have wanted to keep the communication lines open.

Mary Baggot married my step grandfather in 1948, he was posted in Africa (Kings Rifles) during the war so no helpful clues there.

Essentially I think I am after somebody who may well remember something, maybe a weekly dance etc, also given the (appalling) statistics I have been finding out about bomber crew during my research - just how many Canadian Navigators flying Wellingtons in 1941 in Lincolnshire would actually have survived the war? I am hoping it can be narrowed down to a small list.

Many thanks for your time and effort here.

Geoff
00 646 378 7667

-- Edited by Geoff McNelly on Monday 21st of March 2011 04:20:31 PM

Geoff McNelly · Leading Aircraftsman

Hi Leslie,

I am no way an expert but could Squadrons 103 & 12 be a bit closer than 101?

I have found a great candidate (even looks like my Dad) - Flying Officer Edwin Norman Hooke (Squadron 103), he was a Canadian from Toronto and enlisted in September 1941. He completed his training as a navigator and was commissioned in September 1942.

103 squadron moved to Elshom Wolds in July 1941, and he enlisted in September, and survived the war. He would have flown Wellington's during training and then moved to Lancasters.

Also just been doing a bit of research on the mother's side, her brother was a solicitor in S****horpe after the war, Elshom Wolds appears to be less than 10 miles away, seems too close to be a co-incidence to me.

Best regards

Geoff

-- Edited by Geoff McNelly on Monday 21st of March 2011 04:15:54 PM

Dave_Richardson · Flight Sergeant

Hi Geoff

I've found a birth for a Timothy J. Baggot in the first quarter of 1942. I couldn't find anything in the name of McNelly. The mothers name is also given as Baggott so the chance of there being a father recorded on the certificate are slim. The birth was registered in Brighton, she may have been "sent away" to have the baby, to a relative perhaps. The only way to be sure about the fathers name, or lack of it, is to order a copy of the birth certificate which now cost around £9. You could also try ringing the Brighton Register Office explain what you're after and see if they will tell you if there is a fathers name on the certificate. If there isn't that will save you some money.

Dave

Geoff McNelly · Leading Aircraftsman

Hi Dave,

Well that must be my father, no doubt there.
I guess being "sent away" may have been quite likely back then, it's a different world today.
I will contact the Brighton register office to see if they can find anything more but as you say the chances of finding his name are slim I think.

Many thanks for your time.

Geoff

Geoff McNelly · Leading Aircraftsman

If he was in 101 Squadron then I have narrowed it down to 123 names below using purely "RCAF" and the fact they survived, and excluded Pilot Officers - If only it had noted navigator, gunner etc the list would be down to around 20. Can any clues be gleaned from the Service numbers (eg enlisted date, navigators)?

R N     AITKEN
O     ALBRECHT
Robert Arthur     ANDREW
G M     ATYEO
Norman Llyod     AUSTEN
J K     BALCOMBE
F W     BALGE
James Donald     BARBER
K S     BEARDSALL
M T     BEREHAM
F C     BERTELSON
Robert Loughrey     BLACK
F C     BROOKE
F C     BROOKS
W E     BUIE
F W     BULGE
Harold Gordon     BULLOCK
E     CAMPBELL
JAMES     CLARK
Arthur Warren     CODE
T W     COMARS
K D     CONNELL
James Geddes Robertson     COOKE
W E     CURRIER
MARTIN DAVID     DAVIS Y
H W     DAVY Y
E J     DELANEY
S     DILLON
John Ronald     DREWERY
G A C     EBY
Ray Charles     ELLIOTT
F R     FLETCHER
JOSEPH     FRIEDT Y
J H     GILLMEERE
J E     GILLMORE
John Harvey     GILMORE
G L     GILVOR
L T     GOAT
R J     GOERES
Harold Graham     GRANT
James Andrew Douglas     GRAY
R M     GUNDER
R M     GUNDY
A G     HALL
Arthur     HARRISON
Arthur Murray     HERRING
D     HOFFMAN
D     HOFFMAN
PERCIVAL ERIC JOHN     HOWE Y
Walter     HRYNKIW
E     HUNTER
R     INGEBERG
Robert Davis     IRVINE
Lyle Franklin     JAMES
H A     JAMIESON
W L     JOHNSON
L M     JOYNER
Alexander David     KABBASH
L F     KENNEDY
M L     KERR
R G     KILLWYN
Louise Philip Horace     LAPOINTE
J W     LAWRENCE
S J     LICQUERISH
Robert Alexander     LOW
D F     MACDONALD
J     MARCHAND
William Archibald     McCLENEGHAN
J     MCCLURE
Robert James     McDONALD
D N     McFAYDEN
M G     MCGREER
Donald Kenzie     McKAY
I R     MCKAY
D T     MCKILLOP
C J     MCLEOD
R H     MCLEOD
W D     MENGER
W D G     MERLIN
     MERRILL
C H     MITCHELL
H J     MOORE
Harris Elbert     NAUGLER
Eric Hersholt     NIELSEN
G A     NOBLE
H S     NUNN
N E     NYT
John Charles Patrick     O'CONNOR
C L     OUTHOUSE
Reginald Philip     PATERSON
F A     PIERCE
H S     PROWSE
J L     RITCHIE
G D     ROBERTSON
H P J     ROY
D F     RYCROFT
Wilfred George     SCHENK
G E A     SCHULTZ
G E H     SCHULTZ
G L     SCOTT
S F     SILVER
Wallace James     SIMPSON
E A     SPEARS
J M     STARR
L W     STEWART
Douglas Warner     STORMS
L M     TAGGERT
Richard Bernard     TIBBS
Elmer John     TROTTER
Robert Fairful     UPCOTT
Grant     WADE
John David     WALKER
E G     WARBURTON
B N     WILKESMAN
B W     WILKOAMAN
L K G     WILLIAMS
W G     WILSON
R G     WINCHESTER
George     WITHENSHAW
C G     WOELLFLE
C H     WOLFLE
R T     WOOD
A E     YOUNG

alieneyes · Group Captain

No. 101 Squadron was NOT based in Lincolnshire in 1941. At the time they were still flying Blenheims out of RAF West Raynham, Norfolk, in No. 2 Group.

Of the list posted above I can see several men who were killed on their tours. Many of the ones who weren't were not even in the RCAF in 1941.

Geoff McNelly · Leading Aircraftsman

Hi alieneyes,

I hope I have not offended here, simply taking advice from Leslie's previous post who said there could be a chance it was 101 squadron. I am afraid I did not know what planes were flown at the time. I did realise they were flying out of Norfolk but felt this was enough of a lead not to be ignored.

Just fyi all crew members on my list were "RCAF" as per the database, eg - http://www.156squadron.com/101view_aircrew.asp?pCrewid=15517

but as you say there was no indication as to when they enlisted, when they went operational etc, this is why I was asking about the service numbers. Of course there is still the possibility that my grandfather was still training in 1941, but hey just trying to narrow things down sensibly to those that are the best match with the info I have.

I have now found out that my grandmother was an ambulance driver at one of the airfields and lived in Lincoln, so it seems likely that they would have met here, almost certainly whilst he was operational in 1941. I am sure there would be a myriad of bomber command airfields around Lincoln at the time? I will start working through these to determine which is most likely.

As he was Canadian I had only worked through the 400 series squadrons initially but then turned to this website for help on the UK squadrons as the dates did not really match - is there any other squadron that he could have belonged to? If only I could narrow it down to a particular airfield or squadron it would cut the possibilities down greatly.

Many thanks for your reply, all information greatly received.

Geoff

Dave_Richardson · Flight Sergeant

Hi Geoff

If your grandmother was in the RAF, or any of the services come to that, you could apply for a copy of her service record. It will show where she was posted to. It will cost you £30 and you may have to wait a few weeks for it to come through. Heres a link on how to apply:

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/Personnel/ServiceRecords/MakingARequestForInformationHeldOnThePersonnelRecordsOfDeceasedServicePersonnel.htm

Dave

alieneyes · Group Captain

Hi Geoff,

No offence taken at all. I just went down the list of names and saw many who were killed. If you got them from the 156 Sqn site it may be that you came across their roll of honour as well. Of the men on the list who died in the war I have all their service records and all enlisted or were still in Canada in 1941.

He could have belonged to ANY squadron in 1941, not just anything RCAF. Another possibility is that he was a Canadian in the RAF, which, unfortunately, opens another area of investigation. Yet another thought is that he was Training Command, Ferry Command or Coastal Command.

Dave Richardson's idea of obtaining your grandmother's RAF records seems to be the way forward. Once you know where she was on a given month, you can then begin narrowing down where she could have met this man.

Don't give up!

Jennifer · Aircraftsman 1st Class

HI Geoff

You mentioned Edwin Norman Hooke, in Squadron 103, he was born Jan 25 1918, he was my Father inlaw, I have many pictures of him in his "War Album" I have a couple of people that I could ask about him having a child in England. Maybe you could e-mail me jcochrane_50@hotmail.com

-- Edited by Jennifer on Tuesday 12th of April 2011 08:36:41 PM

Jennifer · Aircraftsman 1st Class

Jennifer wrote:
HI Geoff

You mentioned Edwin Norman Hooke, in Squadron 103, he was born Jan 25 1918, he was my Father inlaw, I have many pictures of him in his "War Album" I have a couple of people that I could ask about him having a child in England. Maybe you could e-mail me jcochrane_50@hotmail.com

-- Edited by Jennifer on Tuesday 12th of April 2011 08:36:41 PM

Barry L · Corporal

Hi, Geoff - I'm new to this forum, but I've also been doing some research regarding my Grandfather's service with 101 Squadron...and I can assure you that 101 were NOT in Lincolnshire until at least the end of 1942, more likely 1943, which is roughly when the Squadron converted to Lancasters from Wellington 111's (my Grandfather's aircraft).

When my Grandfather (Sgt Jack Love, Observer) joined 101, they were flying Wellington 1C's at Oakington, Cambs, during the winter of 1941/2; his first crew were three Canadians, but his name memory was poor - he said they were:- Pilot Al Moran, Front Gunner Bob Oxendale, and W/Op Jake Daniels - though none of these are in the above list! It's possible that they weren't in the RCAF, but just voluntered from elsewhere.

The Squadron then moved to Bourn (a satellite of Oakington) when they upgraded to the 'Wimpey' 111's, and my Grandfather was transferred over to D-Donald X3472 with an all-English crew- he didn't know for sure, but he believed that the Canadians managed to get transferred either to another Wellington squadron, or perhaps the Middle East ...

alieneyes · Group Captain

Barry L wrote:

When my Grandfather (Sgt Jack Love, Observer) joined 101, they were flying Wellington 1C's at Oakington, Cambs, during the winter of 1941/2; his first crew were three Canadians, but his name memory was poor - he said they were:- Pilot Al Moran, Front Gunner Bob Oxendale, and W/Op Jake Daniels - though none of these are in the above list! It's possible that they weren't in the RCAF, but just voluntered from elsewhere.

His name memory was pretty good!

The 101 Squadron Operations Record Book shows your grandfather's first op was to Ostend, Belgium on 26 November 1941 in Wellington Z1080. Crew listed as:

Sgt. Moran

Sgt. Beecroft

Sgt. Love

Sgt. Daniel

Sgt. Oxendale

Sgt. Wade

Take off from Oakington at 1719 hrs. Operation was abandoned owing to 10/10s cloud cover over target and all three Wellingtons tasked returned to base with their bombs.

-- Edited by alieneyes on Wednesday 14th of December 2011 07:54:49 AM

Barry L · Corporal

Oh, fantastic! Thanks so much for that, Alieneyes! I've just embarrassed myself, then, by making the enquiry to the webmaster of the 101 Squadron Assoc's website...Oops... (or is that you, too? ;-> )

Well, that certainly confirms the initial part of the story and gives me the date/time details to drop into the story and confirms his target & weather memory accuracy - really appreciate that! Looks like Sgt Beecroft was sitting in as "Second Dickey" for that trip, then - he was later to be the pilot of D-Donald when it crash-landed in France with my Grandfather as Observer... (see my post, http://100548.activeboard.com/t46717013/sgt-jack-love-101-squadron-19412/ for the short story).

It's certainly been really worth registering on this forum already - and I've only been on 24hrs! Great stuff!!

-- Edited by Barry L on Wednesday 14th of December 2011 06:14:38 PM

alieneyes · Group Captain

No, the 101 Sqn website is run by somebody else, although we all have the same ORB.

I wouldn't say Beecroft was flying any 2nd Dickey as 1941 was still the era of Wellingtons having two pilots. The 2nd pilot was done away with in April, 1942, being replaced by a Flight Engineer.

Barry L · Corporal

Well, it was my Grandad who mentioned the phrase "2nd Dickey" in his story - perhaps that's what the crews nicknamed them?

Thing is, though, that when X3472 went off on that fateful raid & crashed in France, there was only John Beecroft in the pilot's seat, with no flight engineer to help him re-start the dud engine - hence their bellyflop into the fields. Beecroft had asked my Grandad to come up front to try to help the re-start, but changed his mind before Grandad could get away from his desk & requested a return course bearing instead; had my Grandad actually been given time to help him, they may well have got home instead, as it appears that a re-start was often possible but only by two pilots, or a pilot & engineer, so we were told by Bomber Command Assoc'...

alieneyes · Group Captain

I was rushing out the door when I wrote this today. I should have explained myself better. Apologies.

The Wellington never had a Flight Engineer. The position came into being with the advent of the four engined heavies (Lancaster, Halifax etc). 101 converted to the Lancaster in late 1942 but until then they flew the Wellington with a crew of five.

On 101 Squadron in 1943-45, most new pilots went out on one operation with an experienced crew as the "2nd Dickey". I would certainly accept your grand dad's phrase as correct. I have only heard the term used to describe this first trip but would accept it also meant a permanent 2nd pilot.

Date: Nov 7, 2014

Hi, I don't know if this will reach as it is now November 2014, but, my father-in-law is Edwin Norman Hooke's brother. However, we knew him as Uncle Ted who was the navigator of Lancasters at that time. unfortunatel Uncle Ted passed away in 1985. If you have a picture you could email to me I can check with my father-in-law if this was his brother. My email address is bhooke@storm.ca.

Date: Nov 7, 2014

Hi Cathy

Your father in-law must be James Hooke, Ted was my Father in-law. You can e-mail me at jcochrane_50@Hotmail.com, I sent you one but not sure if you got it.

Jen