Bomber Command WOP/Navigator training

Date: Dec 7, 2014

Bomber Command WOP/Navigator training

Graye · Leading Aircraftsman

Perhaps I should add that his name was Norman Hodges Westwood and his service number was 2223125. I have a photo which unfortunately has a faded date but it is a group photo of E. Flight, 2 Squadron, 70 ITW, Bridlington. I think this must have been during training.

I also have what appears to be a training note book mentioning 1 Air Crew wing RAF Madley, also No 2 and No 4 Radio Schools. Also notes about flying in Proctors and Dominies... It seems he was still receiving navigator training until at least Xmas 1944 but not sure whether he was flying as a WOP at that point.

-- Edited by Graye on Sunday 7th of December 2014 10:03:43 AM

PeteT · Wing Commander

A start point for you:

The standard aircrew training during the war consisted of basic training at an Initial Training Wing, followed by trade training at specialist school(s) either in the UK or overseas.

Once qualified in his trade he would have "crewed up" and trained as part of a crew before being posted to an operational squadron.

His service number of 2223125 falls within the range used for enlistments in Birmingham after Oct 1942.

If you would like further details as you progress your research, please let me know.

Regards

Pete

-- Edited by PeteT on Sunday 7th of December 2014 01:41:39 PM

-- Edited by PeteT on Sunday 7th of December 2014 01:42:15 PM

-- Edited by PeteT on Sunday 7th of December 2014 02:19:08 PM

Graye · Leading Aircraftsman

Thanks for the information. I now have the MOD paperwork. I realise that he was only flying operationally right at the very end of the war and the paperwork confirms this, but he always said that they were very active in that period. What it doesn't show is the squadron etc. I've interpreted the paperwork as far as possible but can't see any squadron info, just RAF Locking. I'm posting photographs of this paperwork and wonder if is there a chance someone could tell me what I'm looking at please? If this does not conclusively prove he was flying operationally, does anyone have any ideas where else we could look for this please?

PeteT · Wing Commander

I am just having a quick look at the record for you but I can't see any mention of operational flying with Bomber Command during WWII

He appears to have qualified in his trade as a Wireless Operator (Air) [2] on 2nd March 1945 and then been posted to 4 Radio School (possibly for holding purposes / hands on training / as an instructor?).

If he was operational with Bomber Command he would have been posted to an operational training unit (OTU) (after completion of his trade training) where he would have crewed up and learned to fly operationally as part of a bomber crew. The crew would have then moved on to a heavy conversion unit (HCU) to learn to fly the heavy bombers before being posted to an operational squadron.

If you are interested, I can provide you with more details regarding each of his training units.

Regards (and good luck with your research)

Pete

Graye · Leading Aircraftsman

Thanks for that. That was the conclusion we reached. But he often spoke about an operational squadron (the number was somewhere in the low one hundreds I believe) and also the crew he flew with. His pilot was named Gordon Thomspon and was an Argentinian, there were several Australians and a Jamaican too. The planes were Lancasters and he mentioned that they were flying more or less every other day, sometimes with a crew of only five when he would double up as WOP and navigator. In later life he belonged to a local RAFARS club and I'm wondering if he would have given them details at the time he joined. Somehow things don't quite add up!

PeteT · Wing Commander

Sadly, I can't see anything that suggests that he trained as a navigator.

He was recommended for training as a Wireless Operator / Air Gunner and his training record shows that he followed this route. The service record also shows that he was still at 4 Radio School at the end of the war. As I mentioned earlier, he did not undertake any operational training at an OTU / HCU after this and he was not posted to any operational squadrons.

It is also worth noting that if he had flown operationally over Europe he would have been entitled to more than the War Medal (as listed on his record). As an example, if he had been with an operational squadron for 60 days and flown at least one sortie he would have qualified for the 1939 - 1945 star.

I am wondering whether his flying experience was whilst he was in the Middle East after the war. This obviously would not count towards a Bomber Command Clasp.

I am guessing that you do not have his flying log book (as this would list the flights he undertook)

As you say .... there is something not quite right here.

Regards

Pete

-- Edited by PeteT on Tuesday 27th of January 2015 01:30:21 PM

farasat317 · Aircraftsman 1st Class

I'm hoping that someone will be able to help me with some information. I'm starting from the point of very little information so I'm hoping to build up a picture. I am looking for information in connection with my father, who joined the RAF in December 1943. He was eighteen at the time and trained as a WOP/Navigator. I have his service number and know that he was a flight sargeant. He was discharged with good conduct in 1947 after having spent a period in Palestine. We are about to apply to RAF Disclosures for their information. This was spurred on by MOD's refusal to issue a Bomber Command clasp as they have apparently no record of him being in an operational unit. We are quite positive that he WAS; he often mentioned being two bombing flights short of a tour and that he did actually complete a tour as he did reconnaisance and leaflet dropping flights as well as bombing runs. So while we are waiting for their paperwork we thought we would try to build up a picture ourselves. We have a copy of his release booklet but the page with his service details is detached. I seem to think we have another booklet with dates and places for training courses but can't find it at the moment. Some photos of him, undated, show him wearing his aircrew wings on his uniform. So, the part I would like to understand is, how long would a new recruit normally be in training to be a WOP/Navigator? Thanks for any help...

-- Edited by farasat317 on Wednesday 28th of January 2015 04:55:31 AM

AW · Air Commodore

Most logbooks i have seen, show approx 16 to 18 months. I have one in fron of me for a Navigator, who started training in April 43 and his first operational flight within 61sqdn was August 9th 44. What is your father's full name and service number....

Graye · Leading Aircraftsman

Thanks for the ongoing help with this. We've checked his medals and there are FOUR.

These are:

The 1939-1945 star

The France and Germany star

The 1939-1945 service medal

Palestine Medal and bar

I think the notebook I have is a training logbook. It shows a lot of radio related work (the whole family became radio hams later so I recognise various pieces of information/terminology) but there are also notes relating to navigator work. It's about A5 size with a dark blue cover and maroon spine . Does this sound right? There are no entries after December 1944 and yet it isn't full. The back of the book has dates and a list of practice flights in Dominies & Proctors. He retrained as a telephonist before going to Palestine so could be why he was at another radio school in September 1945.

His full name was Norman Hodges Westwood, service number 2223125. He later joined RAFARS and the Air Crew Association. Would they be likely to have any information from his applications etc?

PeteT · Wing Commander

It is becoming difficult to provide additional feedback as the information you have does not appear to tie in with the details on the service record.

The service record shows that he completed his trade training in March 1945, leaving him until May 1945 to:

- train as part of a crew at an OTU and then at an HCU
- join and settle into an operational squadron
- fly an operational tour of nearly 30 sorties

OTU and HCU training took months (I can provide more detailed timings if you wish) and a tour would have taken him a few months too.

I keep going back to the record to see if I am missing something but, as previously mentioned, the service record makes no reference to him being posted to an OTU, HCU or to an operational squadron; as such, I can only repeat what you said in an earlier thread that ..... something does not quite add up.

Regards

Pete

Graye · Leading Aircraftsman

Yes I understand your comments. I have one or two more leads now so I'll pursue those and report back when I find more information.

Haider · Aircraftsman 1st Class

I wanted to ask if it will still be possible for me to find out more about my uncle's service without his log or details of the squadrons he served with?

We know very little about his service other than at some point he was awarded the DFC.

PeteT · Wing Commander

I would suggest that you start a separate thread and provide as much information as you can about him (name, service number, trade, dates etc) and we will see what we can do for you.

Regards

Pete